why are convoys still alive, even after the death of the country

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    • ATownGtr wrote:

      Quit your freaking crying already, build some ships and kill the dam things already, it's the freaking AI and your in the game to destroy what the hell is the problem! Quit crying about a free game that doesn't work exactly the way you want it to or go play something else!
      The only "whining" I see here is yours. It's not a credit to our alma mater.


      ATownGtr wrote:

      This doesn't mean the Navy looses it's ability to fight
      Uh, yes, it does. No oil, no movement. No munitions, no ability to defend itself. No food, its sailors starve to death. No shipyard, no ability to maintain and refit.


      ATownGtr wrote:

      how do you know that the defeated country doesn't have an alliance with other countries that can help it out?
      Uh, because its allies are listed on the country information for each player. That's why.

      ATownGtr wrote:

      Quit your freaking crying already, build some ships and kill the dam things already, it's the freaking AI and your in the game to destroy what the hell is the problem!
      Thank you, but I don't build my naval units only to sacrifice them to kill orphan AI naval units. I just killed 30+ orphan AI cruisers and battleships with three nuclear missiles. I believe in asymmetric superiority: I use standoff battleship gunfire to kill cruisers and destroyers, and standoff destroyer gunfire to kill submarines. And, if the AI naval unit stacks are huge, as they sometimes are, I feel zero remorse about nuking them into oblivion at zero cost to my own forces.

      And, just so you know, I don't want this changed because I can't handle orphan AI naval units. (I can, and I know how to destroy orphan naval units at minimal cost to my own forces.) I want it changed because it's just about the dumbest single aspect of the game. And last time I checked, the overwhelming majority of players agreed with me. And raising your voice and engaging in insults does not make your opinion any stronger.

      Cheers.

      The post was edited 2 times, last by MontanaBB ().

    • I am with the folks that don't like ghost fleets.

      It is already ridiculous that navies don't have any connection to bases once they are built. They really should be more like airplanes in that regard. I have spent a few decades of my life working in, on and around Navy craft and one thing is certain. They all have home ports and need refit / resupply on a regular basis.

      A naval unit without a base to support it is walking dead. There is no "live off the land" option.

      When the last friendly naval base is lost, those ships need to start losing health. The same code cycle that restores units when they are not in combat can be used to attrite units that don't have a supply base.

      No navy base? All your naval units lose 10% health each day.

    • MontanaBB wrote:

      Uh, because its allies are listed on the country information for each player. That's why.
      Information page only lists country it is at war with, unless there's been an update that I've missed. Sorry that we're trying to work with you in explaining why things work why they do. A developer even confirmed that a mechanic of troops dying due to lack of supplies will have to be implemented for the fleets to show this behavior. Because orphan fleets are really the same as orphan armies, which are all the same as fleets and armies of bankrupt and starving countries, everything acts the same. Everything would have to be covered under this new mechanic.

      The question becomes: Is this new mechanic worth the time and manpower the devs would have to sacrifice, or would you rather a couple bugs be fixed and a new map be released? At this point, the devs see that few think the mechanic you want should be implemented, and that many more players want new maps. All players hope bug patches will always remain on the top of the list.
      Free Time looks good on me

    • WiseOdin wrote:

      Information page only lists country it is at war with, unless there's been an update that I've missed.
      If I have an intelligence spy in one of the provinces of the country in question, I get a list of all of its diplomatic relationships every 2 to 3 days. But that's not really the point, and you know that. We're getting bogged down in minutiae. The original question was a red herring in the first instance: how do we know that the orphan fleets aren't being supplied by another allied country? Well, because they're not programmed to even need those supplies, right? Moreover, there's no way to transfer supplies to an AI country if someone wanted to, right?

      WiseOdin wrote:

      Sorry that we're trying to work with you in explaining why things work why they do.
      Save the condescension, please. I don't need you to explain "why things work the way they do."

      We have gone through multiple levels of justifications, starting with rationalizations from "troops don't die" to "people don't stop fighting when their country is conquered" to "they become pirates." Now, we're actually talking about the work that will need to be done, and how it will distract the programmers from all of the other more valuable things they do?

      What I see here is a succession of excuses by the volunteer forum staff, coupled with rude personal attacks from one forum participant who seems to believe that all of his fellow commenters are "whiners" and has now resorted to profanity. (Where's that famous enforcement of forum civility now? What, not even a warning? Not going to delete the comments for repeatedly insulting other participants and calling them "dumba**es?" How about a little consistency in enforcement, please?)

      Odin, if you don't believe the vast majority of COW players think AI "ghost fleets" with indefinite lives are one of the worst features of the game as it presently exists, then have the courage of your convictions and take a survey of all players on point.

      The post was edited 2 times, last by MontanaBB ().

    • I am astonished at how this conversation has deteriorated into bile. whatever your stance is on this subject, your opinion does not negate the actual topic. This is a forum for conversation, and more importantly a section of the forum titled "suggestions/criticism" This alone was designed to allow players to "Whine", comment or discuss anything in this game they feel is wrong, handled poorly or just something they don't like.

      Regardless of your personal feelings towards him as a player and or poster, MontannaBB has handled himself admirably in this topic and in no way has deserved to be dragged out and ridiculed, nor does his ability to play this game have any weight whatsoever to do with the topic at hand.

      I don't know MontannaBB personally and have only ran across him from time to time in the forums. I find nothing wrong with him questioning or commenting on a game he likes to play, as long as he has done so in a proper manner. Which I believe he has.

      As I stated previously I do not like random large stacks of floating naval vessels (20+) roaming the high seas, but I also said I am okay with their existence if the game developers deem them to be.

      however can anyone explain to me why, If they are modeled the same as land units, why then don't we ever see large stacks of land units of the same size? Never have I encountered a stack of say 20 infantry or 20 tanks from an AI country. If the same programming is used for both then why is that not repeated?

      "Cry 'Havoc!', and let slip the dogs of war"



      "The best weapon against an enemy is another enemy."Friedrich Nietzsche

    • Let's just skip past the 10+ posts of personal attacks...

      What I read in there was the game mechanic / code engine does not have a process to deal with units (all types) that run out of supplies.

      This is less of an issue for land units since the provinces tend to be visible and conquered as an AI is defeated. The orphan units tend to be spotted and destroyed. Not necessarily. I have seen ground units that are orphaned sitting on a road in a territory owned by a player that has made peace with the AI. In that scenario, the AI did not move the units because to do so would spark a war. ( I think. Who _really_ knows what the AI does? )

      For naval units, the orphaned unit is not visible without the equivalent of a 'FOD' walk down. In smaller sea areas, this is not too painful and often happens by default. In larger sea areas, tracking down that orphan AI naval unit can be a challenge. Especially if it is a submarine.

      The fix appears to be implementation, across all units, of a supply/health function.

      The good news is this might fit well into the same process that involves units healing themselves when not otherwise engaged in activity. The bad news is it is never easy to change code and not get unintended consequences. That takes time which is money.

      The basic question for bytro is whether or not this "feature" of orphaned units continuing to live and fight is worth the cost to fix it. The "feature" does not break game play (unlike a currently ongoing spontaneous outbreak of peace across all games). It is an unintended consequence of what is likely viewed as other wise very solid code. I don't expect it to get "fixed" with out it being part of a push to add some sanity to the "supply" of units generally.

      Until then, I will watch orphaned fleets sail around my island 45 days after the RP abandoned the game and 40 days after the AI lost it's last province. The AI might have alliances with many other nations but only five remaining players have provinces and I am pretty sure none of them are sharing resources with the ghost fleets.

    • Well I have a proposal, perhaps the Navies and the Armies of defeated countries could act like Insurgents from CoN, Yes I know I talk about that a lot because there is very little I find wrong with that game, where they act on their own initiative. They would basically become pirates somewhat, I know some of the Soviet troops in WWII retreated into the woods and basically became resistance fighters. I think that until this sort of thing is worked out, the orphan units should be removed, I can say that I can't produce nukes to nuke the orphan units, so I have to throw my small anti-convoy fleets at the orphan convoys and orphan battleships, which usually wind up destroying my fleet of (typically) 2 Cruisers, 1 Battleship, 2 Subs, and 3 Destroyers. I think they should be added in, but would act as a hostile faction to all players, they should act like the barbarians from Civilization.
      "ANU! CHEEKI BREEKI IV DAMKE!"

    • Actually, we are preparing an update which will change the behavior of defeated players' troops as follows: If a player loses all of his or her provinces and also is flagged as inactive, all of his remaining armies will immediately get defeated. Enemy armies, which were in a fight with the removed armies, will not be fighting anymore and the relation between the defeated player and other nations is set to peace. This will solve many of the problems we had with 'rogue' units in the past and also allow active players to have a 'comeback' or support their team mates if they so chose.
      Felix / Alkyonor
      Community Manager
      Bytro Labs GmbH

    • Alkyonor wrote:

      Actually, we are preparing an update which will change the behavior of defeated players' troops as follows: If a player loses all of his or her provinces and also is flagged as inactive, all of his remaining armies will immediately get defeated. Enemy armies, which were in a fight with the removed armies, will not be fighting anymore and the relation between the defeated player and other nations is set to peace. This will solve many of the problems we had with 'rogue' units in the past and also allow active players to have a 'comeback' or support their team mates if they so chose.
      Thank YOU I will no longer have to worry about the german fleet attacking my troops !

    • freezy wrote:

      MontanaBB wrote:

      freezy wrote:

      If your enemy wants to keep fighting he can do that even if he lost all his territory. We won't force that decision onto him. If he wants to surrender and make peace, it will also be his decision. The aspects of this game are not only about historical context, there will always be game design compromises.
      @freezy Last time I checked, AI countries were programmed to do what the programmer tells them to do. And I have yet to encounter a human player who has lost all of his territory but maintains a vast armada of40 or 50 "elite" level subs, destroyers, cruisers and even battleships. The problem is not human players being forced to surrender and make peace; the problem is AI countries doing exactly what Bytro programmed them to do. Pretending this is about forcing a decision on a human player is disingenuous, at best.
      Yes they do, but maybe we like how they are operating right now and don't want to change that. Maybe players need to be more careful and scout out the paths they want to take, and also live with the consequences of attacking other nations including rogue troops on sea.Also as far as I know you can make peace with an AI by stopping all fights and changing your relation with them to peace, they should do the same after a while.
      After an AI or player loses all their provinces, they are no longer in the diplomacy list. So, no you can't make peace with an AI nation through that route.

    • Alkyonor wrote:

      Actually, we are preparing an update which will change the behavior of defeated players' troops as follows: If a player loses all of his or her provinces and also is flagged as inactive, all of his remaining armies will immediately get defeated. Enemy armies, which were in a fight with the removed armies, will not be fighting anymore and the relation between the defeated player and other nations is set to peace. This will solve many of the problems we had with 'rogue' units in the past and also allow active players to have a 'comeback' or support their team mates if they so chose.
      You guys are kind of late, i made this thread 8 months ago or so
      This player may have been reactivated in October 27th 2017

    • DxC wrote:

      I honestly don't mind the old way. i like hunting around for any stray subs/DDs
      It's not the "stray" submarine or destroyer squadron that survives as an orphan unit after its parent country is conquered which is objectionable. It's the super ghost fleet of 15 or 20 subs, or subs and destroyers, or cruisers and battleships, which survives to wreak havoc on new players. The typical ghost fleet nightmare scenario is that a precocious rookie has just conquered Spain and is trying to move into north Africa. He's even smart enough to add 4 or 5 destroyer squadrons to his convoy as escorts, and ---- BOOM! ---- his convoy runs into an orphan fleet of 20 Spanish submarine squadrons and he loses most of his army in the disaster that ensues.

      I've never experienced it personally, but I've witnessed it happen several times, and I've learned from the mistakes of others. That said, this game "dynamic" serves no valid purpose other than to create a trap for the unwary. It's as if Karl Doenitz's U-boat fleet had survived 1945 and started sinking British and American super tankers in the 1960s, or randomly sank a troop convoy headed for Korea or Vietnam.

    • JCS Darragh wrote:

      I'd agree, but I think that they should exist, but should lose health and morale every day.
      I suggested as much earlier in this discussion (or was it another related thread?), that the combat effectiveness condition of orphan naval units should be amortized over 7 to 14 days, after which they would either cease to exist or their condition would stabilize at a minimum 5 or 10%. That obviously would require more complex programming and would be subject to more potential bugs.

    • We went with the solution that was not too hard to implement code wise. All armies will vanish once a country loses all its provinces and is flagged as inactive or AI. Basically this simulates the armed forces surrendering with their government gone / surrendering, and since only combat units are displayed on this abstract map, they vanish from the map (lore wise the units would still exist of course, unarmed).

      Change will be live this tuesday.

    • freezy wrote:

      We went with the solution that was not too hard to implement code wise. All armies will vanish once a country loses all its provinces and is flagged as inactive or AI.
      Just to be perfectly clear, Freezy, this means that an active human player who loses his last province, but still has units on the board, has the option of continuing to fight -- correct?

    • MontanaBB wrote:

      freezy wrote:

      We went with the solution that was not too hard to implement code wise. All armies will vanish once a country loses all its provinces and is flagged as inactive or AI.
      Just to be perfectly clear, Freezy, this means that an active human player who loses his last province, but still has units on the board, has the option of continuing to fight -- correct?
      That is correct: as long as you stay active you're still 'in the game'.
      Felix / Alkyonor
      Community Manager
      Bytro Labs GmbH