Paratrooper unit

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  • Paratrooper unit

    My Apologies if this was already covered but did not find anything in a forum search.

    Being that paratroopers were an integral piece in WW2 I was wondering if there are plans to include them and if so when? I know the Germans, Americans, British and Russians all used paratroopers in the war.

    Perhaps they can be added in the secret category since they were more like a specialized unit.

    Thoughts?

    "Cry 'Havoc!', and let slip the dogs of war"




    "The best weapon against an enemy is another enemy."Friedrich Nietzsche
  • I hate people who suggest militia. No on understands how crap it would be.

    I have been reading up on the history of paratroopers from 1914-1945 for some reason, I do not know why, and the success of an airborne invasion depended not on the weather, as you would expect, but on who you were fighting against. I have only finished the part on German paratroopers in WWII, Italian and British joint-ops in WWI and some Russian operations in WWII. I will go into detail about these below.

    In WWI, paratroopers were mainly Italian spies dropped by the British behind enemy lines. They would drop up to five men in one go, I think, and then drop bombs on the way back for an alibi in case they were shot down. The spies would then gather info and wreak havoc.

    Then we go into German airborne operations during WWII. They were initially used to try and bring down part of the Maginot line or some heavy duty forts in Maastricht in Belgium, I am not sure, and secure some bridges and make sure that the bridges were not destroyed as someone had placed explosives on them. The Germans were dropped in by parachute and gliders from a JU-52. This did not go well. Some JU-52's were shot down(I think), some gliders were shot down or crashed on landing but the normal paratroopers who had 'chutes were okay. I think some planes had to turn back and I know that the tow ropes on some of the JU-52's snapped, causing the glider to fall short. Despite these setbacks as well as some troopers getting blown off course, the invasion went okay. Some troops had to disable a fort by landing on top of it and clearing it from top to bottom. This went wrong as wind caused the troopers to land in the wrong place. The had to climb up to the top of the fortress, under enemy fire, and blow a hole in the roof, which they were meant to do anyway. This worked well enough. When they had done this, they were after disabling the AA's on the roof and securing the forts top floor. They had lost the element of surprise while climbing up and could not secure the rest of the fort and took heavy casualties. They had to wait for reinforcements to arrive. When they finally did, most of the men were dead, injured or exhausted, including the CO who had been killed/wounded, not too sure. They successfully took the bridges with minimal casualties, but did not have time to remove the bombs, only to defuse them. When the enemy counter-attacked, they accidentally blew up one/two/all of the three bridges during the firefight from stray bullets hitting the bombs. This slowed the invasion down. Some other stuff happened too but I am not searching through the book to look for it. The invasion went well but there were a lot of casualties. They fought the French, British and Belgians here I think.

    During the German invasion of Norway, the paratroopers did a great job capturing airfields, especially when paired up with some Bf 110's. The Bf 110's would land sometimes land at an airfield(that was already in enemy hands) and use their waist gunner to shoot at ground forces on the field, wreaking havoc. Then the paratroopers would come in. When the paratroopers tried to capture a bridge leading to the capital, which was on an island, they failed. When they were sent to capture the town, they failed again. On those two occasions they had been fighting Brits while at the airfields they were fighting Norwegians.

    Then we have the final time that German paratroopers were used against the Brits. This was the invasion of Crete. This really is a funny story, you should read about it in full detail. I will run through it quickly to get on to the Russians. Basically, the battle lasted a week or so, I believe. After bombardment from some Stuka's and strafe runs from Bf 110's and 109's, I think. Then the funniest invasion I have ever read about was launched. Their was a few divisions, 4-5 I think, involved. The first wave was all either shot down, shot while parachuting down, blown of course or crashed on landing. Their first objectives were to disable enemy AA's and capture an airfield. They did not succeed and took heavy casualties. Whenever reinforcements arrived, the same thing would happen. They spent most of the time running from the Greek, Aussie and British forces. Eventually after heavy casualties and a failed seaborne invasion which had been sunk by the British, they took they island. The results of this was the destruction of any ground unit which had been involved in the invasion, any survivors being transferred to another unit and German never again mounting an airborne invasion against the allies.

    For the Russians, basically the suffered heavily enough casualties but Russia always has more men so more men were trained and sent to the unit that needed them. They were a lot more successful than the Germans because instead of being used against the frontline troops, they were deployed behind German lines to kill retreating men and capture airfields. The main reason this was successful was because they always had armies pushing ahead to meet up with them.

    Now that we have learnt a little about airborne units, let me point out some things. Paratroopers cannot be deployed in cities, mountains or forests, so you could only use them one terrain ingame. They are easy to defend against by digging ditches and putting up poles where they could actually land. When they are on their way to the dropzone, while landing and for a few minutes afterwards when they are finding their weapons, they would be vulnerable to attack unless you have them a fighter escort on their way and bomber protection while landing and getting their guns, which in turn would need another escort. When all is said and done, it would most likely be quicker and cheaper to build a BB with some tanks and infantry.

    Forum ArmyField Marshall :00000441:

    Mess with the Bill, you get the scorn!

  • To call them nothing better than flying militia is an injustice. They often attacked key locations and caused havoc to defending forces. Were all of their attacks blinding successes? of course not, but to say they had no value is nonsense.
    here is some copy and paste as well.

    Crete yes was a bloody mess but,

    "That evening the New Zealand commander on the scene, whose battalion had also suffered heavy casualties — but no heavier than the Germans’ — took his troops off the crucial hill that dominated the airfield. The next morning the German paratroopers found themselves in control of Maleme. Soon a steady stream of Ju-52s flew in reinforcements, and the Germans managed to build up sufficient forces to overwhelm the Commonwealth defenders. The conquest of Crete occupies a special place in military history as the first successful invasion of an island carried out entirely from the air."

    Sicily:

    "the American paratroopers immediately caused a massive headache for the defending Germans and Italians. As the official history suggests: ‘ands of paratroopers were roaming through the rear areas of the coastal defense units, cutting enemy communications lines, ambushing small parties, and creating confusion among enemy commanders as to exactly where the main airborne landing had taken place.’ Perhaps most important, some of these small groups of paratroopers were able to delay the deployment of the Hermann Göring Panzer Division against the Allied landings at Gela."

    Normandy:

    The great moment for the Allied airborne forces came with Operation Overlord in June 1944. Their contribution to that effort alone more than justified the considerable resources that both the British and U.S. armies had poured into development of airborne tactics and training.

    What exactly was to be the mission of the American 82nd and 101st Airborne and the British 6th Airborne? The British airborne troops had perhaps the most crucial mission in terms of Normandy’s geography. They were to seize the solid ground on the east side of the Orne River, while a specially trained gliderborne force was to seize the bridges over the Caen Canal and Orne at Benouville to achieve a linkup with the amphibious landings. The control of that ground, because of the swamps and marshy terrain lying farther east, would mean that the Germans could attack the British and Canadian beaches from the south, but not from the east. And that one direction — to the south — was more than enough to keep the Canadians busy when the murderous juvenile delinquents of the 12th SS Panzer Division ‘Hitlerjügend‘ arrived. The task of the American paratroopers was similar to that of the British: They were to keep the Germans off the backs of the soldiers making the Utah Beach landing and disrupt German communications throughout western Normandy.
    The drops more than accomplished their mission and — to use that dreadful military euphemism — at ‘an acceptable cost.’ The British were luckier in that their drops were more concentrated, while the glider attack on the Caen Canal Bridge — remembered forever afterward as ‘Pegasus Bridge’ — and the Orne River Bridge succeeded beyond the planners’ wildest expectations. By late morning the commandos of Simon Fraser, Lord Lovat, had linked up with the 6th Airborne and the hard ground on the east side of the Orne was relatively secure.
    The American paratroopers were less lucky in that, due to weather, bad navigation and German anti-aircraft fire, the troop carrier pilots dropped them all over Normandy. While that may have had a direct impact on their cohesion as fighting forces, the small groups of paratroopers spread havoc and confusion throughout the Norman countryside. In particular, their actions distracted the attention of German commanders away from the landings, including that on Omaha Beach. Moreover, enough paratroopers landed near where they were supposed to that the airborne was able to accomplish its basic missions — Lieutenant Dick Winters’ assault on the German battery at Brécourt Manor near the Utah Beach landing site being a notable example.

    "So what did the airborne forces achieve in World War II? From the German point of view, airborne troops were a cheap investment that yielded significant dividends, particularly in a psychological sense. Their military role in the 1940 campaigns was impressive. The 1941 Crete invasion was costly, but it was of considerable strategic importance. The operation denied the British the use of a very important base from which they could have attacked the Romanian oil fields. On the Allied side, the resources expended on the development of airborne forces were considerable — but then the Americans had plenty of resources to expend. The airborne’s contribution to the success of the Normandy landing was impressive and important. For the first two days it provided a shield that allowed the reinforcement and expansion of the beachheads to go forward with very little interference from the Germans."



    We can debate all day long as to the value of paratroopers, but that does not change the fact that they WERE used in WW2 and this is a WW2 game. If we have commandos in game and nuclear bombs and so forth, how then can we justify not including paratroopers who were indeed a big part in the war.

    "Cry 'Havoc!', and let slip the dogs of war"




    "The best weapon against an enemy is another enemy."Friedrich Nietzsche
  • Paratroopers are over exaggerated and would be a waste of res. They have little or no heavy weapons. The heaviest vehicle support they could get dropped in was a light tank. There was no heavy arty or heavy AT guns that could be moved. Everyday that ground forces weren't there, they took high casualties. Normandy could've still been done without paras. Arnhem was awful, just a load of dead and not much else. When used in the Battle of the Bulge, all they did was die and retreat. They really are just flying militia, they are alright against normal inf but once something a bit heavier than rifles and MG's comes along, they are screwed. Even a couple of half tracks on a bend in a road would put them to bed. They don't even have to be half tracks, any old MG sitting on the roadside would do the trick.

    Forum ArmyField Marshall :00000441:

    Mess with the Bill, you get the scorn!

  • Fair enough, but that is after all an opinion of their effectiveness.

    Whether you choose to use them in game or not is also a choice, but yet they should still be included. They were used in the war and the option should be there. While I don't think we should have OP paratroopers running amok in the game, I do believe that historically they are an active participant in WW2 affairs.

    I find little value in using militia, armored cars and rail guns, but yet there they are.

    "Cry 'Havoc!', and let slip the dogs of war"




    "The best weapon against an enemy is another enemy."Friedrich Nietzsche
  • I have a better idea that might seem more appealing to all of us. I hate the thought of dropping militia behind enemy lines to die, but more than just inf was dropped in the war. Tanks, arty and AT guns were dropped too. Here is what I propose.

    We are able to drop militia, any light tank and special types of arty and AT guns behind enemy lines via airdrop. The AT and arty will be weaker than normal since it is smaller but the militia is fine with the LT at half(or three quarter) strength.

    It takes three runs to drop the full unit and until all the units are dropped they can only stay put and defend. There is a 2 minute drop time and a 5 minute time once they hit the ground where they have no strength since they need to get their gear. They go as fast as normal strat bombers but have less health and cannot defend themselves at all. You can combine them with other aircraft too.

    I like the dropping of tanks and arty. How does that sound?

    Forum ArmyField Marshall :00000441:

    Mess with the Bill, you get the scorn!

  • I like the idea as it stands. On that note I also would like to see limited inf movement by air as well as this was done in war. Ship and truck should not be the only options, albeit the main ways of transport.

    "Cry 'Havoc!', and let slip the dogs of war"




    "The best weapon against an enemy is another enemy."Friedrich Nietzsche
  • Flying militia would be a deadly weapon BBB and I see you already shaking in fear knowing that it will make you invest more in defending your tasty empty back yard :) Which will make you think twice before expanding everywhere....

    Paratroopers had a role in WW2 and you cant call them a failure, if they were a failure then why do modern armies -Britain included - still use them?

    yes for Para Yes for Paratroopers
  • Phara, they would either get bombed to hell or rolled over by my tanks. Anyway, I always have reinforcements coming in and I just realised that I should probably not do anything when these aren't implemented :3

    They use paratroopers nowadays because you can deploy a small force stealthier. Modern troops will be dropped in small troops and they deploy their 'chutes from very low down. They do nothing on the carpet bombing like use of paras in WWII where it was a small price to pay when you lost a couple thousand men.

    Forum ArmyField Marshall :00000441:

    Mess with the Bill, you get the scorn!

  • Sorry for the can opening...I honestly don't see why anyone would not want them in other than concern for strategy affect. If they can fly over your front lines then u must plan for them. If you are also on the side of them being resource waste then don't use them. Debating their real life effectiveness at this point is mute IMHO. They should be included because of the added game mechanics and strategy as well as the historical value.

    in all seriousness though we should have a healthy debate on this as that is what the forums are for. (among other things)

    "Cry 'Havoc!', and let slip the dogs of war"




    "The best weapon against an enemy is another enemy."Friedrich Nietzsche
  • I have put this idea down twice before, think I should start keeping a tally?

    We do not need a debate, it is just taking it too far. We have one type of militia, we don't need another type that falls to their doom. Which would you prefer, flying militia or aircraft carriers?

    Forum ArmyField Marshall :00000441:

    Mess with the Bill, you get the scorn!

  • I agree completely with you, but the developers don't want them, and as the community is divided on this topic, they're not going to introduce them

    Armatus wrote:

    in all seriousness though we should have a healthy debate on this as that is what the forums are for. (among other things)
    We already had. It took ages to end it.
    The past is a foreign country.