sub visibility

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    • Destroyers do not detect submarines.

      What can be confusing is non-HC submarines will attack destroyers. Additional destroyers responding to the scene can then engage from a distance.

      HC submarines, with the additional fire control options can walk right past a destroyer if the submarine is in either "Hold Fire" or "Return Fire" mode.

      Destroyers, as ASW units, need support from Naval Bombers in order to detect Submarines.

      Naval Bombers _always_ detect submarines.


      So, your submarine killing machine needs a half dozen destroyers and a couple of naval bombers. I have also found it handy to bring along a few submarines also. Use them to "stick" the enemy sub after your Nav has found it. Then your destroyers can do ranged attacks all day long with no counter attack.

      Hope that helps.
    • A sub that is not using HC fire control to avoid engagement will automatically attack a destroyer. At that point, the destroyer "sees" the submarine and responds.

      This means a screen of destroyers will "trigger" submarines into attacking them. The L1 submarine attacks with a 2.0 while the L1 destroyer defends with a 1.5. However, the counter attack L1 Destroyer attacks with with a 3.0 versus the L1 submarine at 1.7. This will be a fairly even match between the triggered sub and the travelling destroyer.

      If the destroyer has a friend or two, with their stand off capability, the triggered submarine is in for a bad day.


      So a non-HC submarine fleet is not quite as overpowering as you might think. Even a HC submarine fleet, properly used is still vulnerable to a well run Nav/DD/Sub strategy.

      Those surface ships are still important for other reasons.

      Submarines are about denying the use of the sea to others. They are lousy at projecting power onto land.

      For that a CV is needed to bring air support (also handy for chasing subs with Navs). That CV needs some protection so DDs are needed. The CV/DD group would like a more efficient way to handle AA other than lots of Interceptors so a Cruiser or two is in order. Finally, if you are looking to cross an opposed beach, it is nice to have a BB around. That BB can also come in handy if the bad guys have one handy.

      While I could offer some tweaks on the actual play balancing of the various fleet elements, submarines do not rule the oceans. They just make it hard for someone else to do so.
    • F. Marion wrote:

      Destroyers do not detect submarines.
      I've always thought this was a rather odd game feature. During World War II, destroyers ("DDs") equipped with sonar (a.k.a. "ASDIC") and passive underwater listening devices were the principal means of detecting submerged submarines.

      Advanced naval patrol bombers equipped with radar and klieg lights were great for catching U-boats on the surface, and even surprising them at night, and close to half of all lost U-boats were sunk by Allied air attacks. Even advanced patrol bombers, however, had a limited ability to detect partially submerged subs (radar detection of periscopes) and completely submerged subs (visual sighting in shallow and/or very clear water during daylight). And although the RAF experimented with air-dopped sonobuoys, the technology was in its infancy and not particularly effective under Atlantic combat conditions. As the sonobuoy technology improved over time after the war, it became the most cost-effective way to detect and track Soviet subs over vast ocean expanses during the Cold War.

      Bottom line: in-game destroyers should be able to detect submarines, and in-game naval patrol bombers should be better at sinking them. The COW developers got this exactly reversed.
    • It seems destroyers can indeed find even stealth subs. I have high command and have my subs set to 'return fire' as I wanted naval vessels to pass and I intended to hit the follow-on convoy ships. When the two unit stack of destroyer and battleship got to the point my stealth sub was located, the battle ensued. I never changed the status of my sub, and I was watching as this happened as I had suspected this was happening from previous stealth subs getting into fights.
    • Your subs are only visible in the following conditions:

      a) Spy units in nearby provinces revealed the sub or the reveal armies premium action was used
      b) Your submarine attacked when the enemy ships moved into the same position (subs will only not attack if set to hold fire, when status is still on return fire they will attack when in the same spot)
      c) patroling planes uncovered your sub.
    • @freezy: That's what I thought.

      No-one is happier than I am that the most recent unit changes have taken a considerable step to addressing the historically "unbalanced" submarine AA vs. naval bomber dynamic that was so frequently complained about, but perhaps we should also consider adding some form of sub detection to L2/L3 destroyers and above, too. After all, sonar/asdic-equipped destroyers were the principal means of sub detection and were responsible for roughly half of all submarine sinkings during WWII . . . .
    • MontanaBB wrote:

      .. perhaps we should also consider adding some form of sub detection to L2/L3 destroyers and above, too. After all, sonar/asdic-equipped destroyers were the principal means of sub detection and were responsible for roughly half of all submarine sinkings during WWII . . . .
      I agree..
      .. provided that at the same time the subs get ranged torpedoes or the ability to solve themselves from close combat.
      The fight of subs is "lurking, strike and disappear" and not close combat. :thumbsup:
      Display Spoiler
      Hmm, and then we also need earmuffs so we can not hear the many weeping players because of so much realism. :00008359:

      Browser games are an ingenious business idea to lure out money -
      - more or less cleverly camouflaged as a real game sometimes.
      So beware of caltrops, spring-guns and booby traps. :00008185:
      Warning! Texts above this signature may contain traces of irony! :whistling:
    • Restrisiko wrote:

      I agree..
      .. provided that at the same time the subs get ranged torpedoes or the ability to solve themselves from close combat.
      The fight of subs is "lurking, strike and disappear" and not close combat.
      Yes, sir. Just like BBs, CCs and DDs have the option of ranged combat (bombardment with naval guns from a distance), submarines should not have to engage in "death lock" close combat in order to fire their torpedoes and run away. Perhaps there should be a greater "x" factor to represent the greater inaccuracy of firing torpedoes from greater distances, but subs should definitely be able to take their shots at capital ships and run away. Of course, sub units would still prefer close combat for attacks on unescorted convoys of ground units.

      It's really kind of surprising that the German developers chose the present mode of combat for in-game sub units. They have turned the traditional strengths and tactics of WWII U-boats upside down.
    • @WayneBo: I believe that the programming strings may already exist in form of the "x"factor as well as the decreasing effect of rocket and aerial bombardment as you move several pixels away from the targeted epicenter of a rocket or aerial attack. The difference for submarine attacks could be as simple as two attack modes: (1) close combat values pretty much as they exist now, and (2) a ranged torpedo attack with an increased "x" factor for outcomes, regardless of distance.
    • Restrisiko wrote:

      MontanaBB wrote:

      .. perhaps we should also consider adding some form of sub detection to L2/L3 destroyers and above, too. After all, sonar/asdic-equipped destroyers were the principal means of sub detection and were responsible for roughly half of all submarine sinkings during WWII . . . .
      I agree.... provided that at the same time the subs get ranged torpedoes or the ability to solve themselves from close combat.
      The fight of subs is "lurking, strike and disappear" and not close combat. :thumbsup:
      Display Spoiler
      Hmm, and then we also need earmuffs so we can not hear the many weeping players because of so much realism. :00008359:

      Aah, sorry, and I've forgotten to say, if you wish it really real ;) , then of course the subs need also the ability to attack individual units of a stack (eg separate convoy units or battleships in a mixed formation). And to disappear not only on fixed and limited two-dimensional routes, but additionally according to their real ("historical" ^^ ) ability also in the depth.

      So in order to live up to the reality, it would need a completely different game..
      And more then; eg: Supply ships - time in the dock - tankers from the sources to the refinerys and then to the factorys and the front - wind, weather, seasons - pubs, nurses and.. ..oh God, oh God.. ..who wants to play that? Who has so much time for a virtual "historical" realism? :00008185:

      I have to say, I personally prefer the (still) present simplified variation, and if i wish more realism and/or have more time to waste, I play a simulation instead of CoW or go outside.. :00000436:

      Browser games are an ingenious business idea to lure out money -
      - more or less cleverly camouflaged as a real game sometimes.
      So beware of caltrops, spring-guns and booby traps. :00008185:
      Warning! Texts above this signature may contain traces of irony! :whistling:
    • Restrisiko wrote:

      Aah, sorry, and I've forgotten to say, if you wish it really real , then of course the subs need also the ability to attack individual units of a stack (eg separate convoy units or battleships in a mixed formation). And to disappear not only on fixed and limited two-dimensional routes, but additionally according to their real ("historical" ) ability also in the depth.
      Hey! Who wants to completely reinvent the game now, herr unterseeboot kapitan?

      Teasing aside, Restrisiko, I would gladly accept your proposed "simple" modification that permits ranged attacks by U-boats, err . . . I mean in-game submarine units. I think we both recognize that there are unavoidable compromises with reality given the game's structural level of granularity, unit size and detail. Most of our players already struggle to fully grasp basic tactics at our present level of detail.