Announcement Controlled Airspace

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    • Quasi-duck wrote:

      freezy wrote:

      2) It is now consistent with ground units, that also trigger the warning popup and war when trespassing. One could argue that the same realism arguments could apply to ground units as well, but there the behaviour is accepted as everyone is used to it. Therefore it is expected that everyone will get used to the airplane behaviour in the same way.
      The reason countries go to war over ground units moving in is because ground units can hold ground.... Aircraft can't. The intent of ground units is, and has always been, to hold ground. If an aircraft is only flying over for recon then so what, they flew overhead. This is why the Cold War is not known as WWIII....
      It is only a supporting point, I still listed 6 more that apply. Still I guess no nation would take it lightly if a whole squadron is permanently patroling over their cities. You can still make a quick fly through.

      WayneBo wrote:

      freezy wrote:

      It is actually a bug fix. Planes on patrol always do damage while patroling
      The 'bug' is that planes do damage while on patrol, every 15 minutes, and for as long as a player leaves the planes on patrol. Some assumed mid-air rearming?The correct fix to this major design flaw would have been to disallow ANY patrolling aircraft to inflict damage.
      The creators of the game intended patroling to do damage. It is explicitly implemented in that way.

      MontanaBB wrote:

      King Draza Mihajlovic wrote:

      you guys can still scout with planes, so why do you guys even care about this?
      You need to explain this, KDM, because I don't believe that even @Sasri and @freezy understand the actual dynamics of the change they are trying to explain here. Their explanations do NOT reflect the reality of your experiment results from last night.
      As explained in points 4.a), b) and c), you still have the means to fly over neutral countries or spy areas directly behind their border without provoking war. You just have to adapt your gameplay a bit.
    • MontanaBB wrote:

      You need to explain this, KDM, because I don't believe that even @Sasri and @freezy understand the actual dynamics of the change they are trying to explain here. Their explanations do NOT reflect the reality of your experiment results from last night.
      kk.

      @freezy
      1) So, airplanes are still capable of scouting, i did a experiment last night, and i have come to the conclusion that planes will do damage 15 minutes after they start scouting. so, people can still scout and avoid any "accidental" wars and get away with scouting, easy as that.


      and land units already have the popup notification when they're moving towards neutral land, so why mention that?
      This player may have been reactivated in October 27th 2017
    • freezy wrote:

      As explained in points 4.a), b) and c), you still have the means to fly over neutral countries or spy areas directly behind their border without provoking war. You just have to adapt your gameplay a bit.
      @freezy: Actually, you can still do a great deal more than that. As I suspected, and as tentatively confirmed by KDM's experiments referenced above, the automatic state of war is apparently triggered by the 15-minute threshold for when patrolling aircraft units begin to inflict damage on enemy units and enemy and neutral buildings within the patrol radius of the patrolling aircraft.

      In other words, the patrolling aircraft actually have to be on station for 15 minutes before the state of war is automatically triggered.

      This is not what either you or Sasri stated in your explanations above, where you implied a state of war would be instantaneous if your aircraft went on patrol with the patrol locus anywhere over neutral territory landmass. If this is actually the case (and the developers choose not to screw with this dynamic any further), then I can live with this. It simply places the burden on the player doing the recon overflights to move his patrolling aircraft units sooner than every 15 minutes, i.e., before any damage is inflicted on the buildings on the ground.

      FYI, contrary to one of the assertions above, to my knowledge, patrolling aircraft units never inflicted damage on neutral units, let alone "decimated" them. I have attacked and completely destroyed enemy units in close proximity to neutral units on neutral territory without inflicting one jot of damage on the neutral units.

      A lot of the arguments for this change are weak, and some are simply factually incorrect. This change was not discussed with the "community" -- it was discussed with a very limited number of players within the Players League, where opinion was divided. It should have been discussed, at length, here in the Forum. It should be embarrassing to you personally (and to you, too, Sasri) that these changes were implemented with little input from the "community" and absolutely no advance notice to the "community," creating maximum havoc and damage for those many experienced players who were relying on the existing game dynamics. You're shooting yourselves in the foot, gentlemen, by aggravating your customers and materially injuring the players' game prospects. This needs to stop. You should not need to be reminded by me (or anyone else) that Bytro Labs' first consideration in the implementation of any change to the game should be minimizing the change's negative impact on those games already in progress for weeks, and sometimes, months. You owe your loyal customers no less than advance notice of such game-impacting changes. Verstehst du das meine Freunde?
    • Then you must have misread my statement, because I meant it is as KDM confirmed it. Airplanes do not immediately trigger war, planes only trigger war once they do damage. As long as you don't do damage, you can do whatever. The popup that triggers is only a warning, it does not mean that war starts immediately after clicking ok. It is the same behaviour as for ground troops that are sent into neutral countries. In section 4 I listed some options on how to still scout neutral countries with the new mechanic: Just fly over them by giving a move command to the next country behind them, use patrol commands inside the neutral country but change the direction fast enough before damage is dealt, or place your permanent patrol command in a way that the center of it is outside of the neutral territory.

      The bug that patroling aircraft killed neutral units without return damage might not have happened in all game situations, but we had several reports for that which was the main reason for this fix, as it is quite gamebreaking. That you were able to damage buildings and morale without return fire was also less than optimal. According to the game creators patroling is supposed to do all of that, so for us it was not about removing this but about restoring the missing war declaration.
      And yes, we may not have asked the whole community about it, but it is also wrong to say that the community had no say at all, because we had contact to all the bug reporters who asked for a fix. We are also discussing solutions with our support teams. Please note that we are not required to discuss every bug fix or gameplay change in advance with everyone. Keep also in mind that in this forum only a very small subset of the community reads, so even discussing it here would not equal to discussing it with the whole community.

      For the missing note in advance I already apologized and I agreed that we have to improve that situation.

      But I am glad that you agreed that you can still use your same strategies with a little adjustment. This was also one of the reasons we thought it is no big deal. Maybe we have to explain better how changes impact the game and how tactics need to be changed. Sadly in the news we often have not enough space to go into much detail, but we will try to explain it better in the forums.
    • freezy wrote:

      Keep also in mind that in this forum only a very small subset of the community reads,
      ouch, man. ouch.

      I beg to differ, freezy. I believe there are many that visit, and read the forum as guests. I played the game well over 6 months before I decided I would like to participate in dialogue, and opened a forum account. I think the archives in the forum answer the majority of questions without a player having to have a forum account and talk. Proof? When the game goes down in a big way the forum is instantly flooded with guests and new members. This happened recently, and a member pointed out that the forum broke the record for visitors online. The reason I opened an account and talked? Why, someone was talking about changing something and I didn't agree with the change suggested. So to say the community does not read the forum is simply not true, and the way you phrased it made THIS member feel insignificant to the company. Ouch my brother ouch.
      “I am the flail of god. Had you not created great sins, god would not have sent a punishment like me upon you.”


      Genghis Khan
    • to sum-up : the recent changes make the patrolling option similar to the one in Conflict of Nations
      unfortunately it is considered to be a bug fix by the devs while the real solution is to stop planes from inflicting damage to ground targets while patrolling in peace time
      I am no programming pro but I think a team who was able to create such a successful game, and implement tons of new features should be able to do it
      Let's Agree To Disagree! Boris the Animal It's Just Boris! Men In Black III

      The post was edited 2 times, last by mio123 ().

    • Dixie wrote:

      freezy wrote:

      Keep also in mind that in this forum only a very small subset of the community reads,
      ouch, man. ouch.
      I beg to differ, freezy. I believe there are many that visit, and read the forum as guests. I played the game well over 6 months before I decided I would like to participate in dialogue, and opened a forum account. I think the archives in the forum answer the majority of questions without a player having to have a forum account and talk. Proof? When the game goes down in a big way the forum is instantly flooded with guests and new members. This happened recently, and a member pointed out that the forum broke the record for visitors online. The reason I opened an account and talked? Why, someone was talking about changing something and I didn't agree with the change suggested. So to say the community does not read the forum is simply not true, and the way you phrased it made THIS member feel insignificant to the company. Ouch my brother ouch.
      I didn't say that the community does not read the forum at all, only that a very small portion of the community reads it. Well, we have the numbers and it is the truth. Otherwise I would not say that. The number of visitors of the forum is only a tiny fraction of the CoW playerbase. Nothing against the forum gang obviously, I love to read here as well and we encourage more users to join us here :) Didn't intent to make you feel insignificant though, just wanted to clarify that we have to take all of our users into account when doing changes, not only the ones posting here. Still you have more influence by posting here than by not posting nothing at all, so keep on coming. :)

      mio123 wrote:

      to sum-up : the recent changes make the patrolling option similar to the one in Conflict of Nations
      unfortunately it is considered to be a bug fix by the devs while the real solution is to stop planes from inflicting damage to ground targets while patrolling in peace time
      I am no programming pro but I think a team who was able to create such a successful game, and implement tons of new features should be able to do it
      It would be possible by reworking the aircraft code, but we want to keep it as it was intended by the game creators. Patroling aircrafts do damage, if damage is dealt war is triggered. It is consistent that way. You are still able to do your scouting with some small adjustments, which should please both sides.
    • You really interpret it in the most negative way possible, don't you? I hoped you would appreciate some "real talk" instead of only fluff. The whole point was not about you alone, so please don't read it as personal insult or something. I just wanted to make clear that the forum is not the whole community, that is all. It is still one important part of the community though. Not in terms of numbers, but in terms of valuable feedback from dedicated players. I also edited my post before you answered, hope it makes you feel a bit better. :)
    • MarkAchkar wrote:

      lets consider we are in 1936 and German planes are patrolling pairs and France , dont u think that those planes would be shot down immediately?
      Yes, had the presumably unmarked photo reconnaissance planes been spotted, they might have been shot down by the French armee de l'air. If they had been spotted. If they had been recognized as German military spy planes. Of course, for Paris, it would have been easier to just buy a map at any news kiosk on the Champs Elysee.

      MarkAchkar wrote:

      and war would have erupted?
      No, war would not have erupted over spy plane being shot down over Paris. The Luftwaffe reconned all of the Low Countries and northern France in 1939. The Luftwaffe reconned all of the western Soviet Union in 1941, and several German planes were shot down. Still no war -- the incidents were disregarded on Stalin's orders. Stalin did not want war in 1941. Neither did the French in 1936 or 1939. Or the Dutch, Belgians and Luxembourgers in 1940. You can ignore a lot when you don't want war with your belligerent neighbor.

      Ditto the U-2 and pilot Gary Francis Powers getting shot down over the USSR, or the USAF waxing a Syrian SU-22 and two Iranian drones as they approached US-supported anti-ISIS militia forces in Syria in the last two months. In fact, I can cite dozens of such incidents over the last 80 years, and no-one declared war over air incursions or their spy planes being shot down.
    • Quasi-duck wrote:

      This is a terrible change. Conflict of Nations has this and it is a truly terrible feature. Never before has a country ever gone to war because someone flew a plane over their nation. Not even when said aircraft was shot down. Just look at the U2 shot down by the Soviets in the Cold War, or when Turkey shot down that Russian jet a while back. Going to war over surveillance just isn't something that happens.
      Glad you are back Quasi.

      Haven't read most responses but this is honestly a terrible update. Whoever came up with this must not play the game or something lmao.
    • freezy wrote:

      You really interpret it in the most negative way possible, don't you? I hoped you would appreciate some "real talk" instead of only fluff. The whole point was not about you alone, so please don't read it as personal insult or something. I just wanted to make clear that the forum is not the whole community, that is all. It is still one important part of the community though. Not in terms of numbers, but in terms of valuable feedback from dedicated players. I also edited my post before you answered, hope it makes you feel a bit better. :)
      The point is the people that do go on the forum is an accurate representation of the community. Nobody really wants this update. The forum community praises CoW for its good updates, some of which are superb. However this update is honestly just stupid.

      MarkAchkar wrote:

      lets consider we are in 1936 and German planes are patrolling pairs and France , dont u think that those planes would be shot down immediately? and war would have erupted? we are not talking about planes flying in the high atmosphere in here, we are talking about planes that are spotted by all the army.
      This is the silliest thing I've read all day. Giving one example between two countries within a certain year as a template for the whole world is super dumb. This post should just be disregarded. However, I will replicate your argument and reply with this; would Ethiopia declare war on 1936 France if they air patrolled over their lands?
    • MarkAchkar wrote:

      lets consider we are in 1936 and German planes are patrolling pairs and France , dont u think that those planes would be shot down immediately? and war would have erupted?
      No, you clearly have no idea about the state of diplomatic affairs in 1936.... Especially considering most, if not all, German aircraft were in Spain and that both France and England did not want to start a war.
      Forum Gang Commissar



      I changed it for you Dia <3
    • look my silly friends, when i see planes patrolling my lands, even if i have nap i go to war! i send a 30min warning to withdraw and never enter my airspace or i go to war, if u r weak and afraid ofc u dont want war, maybe i see u someday in the battlefield and i will show u how silly i am. i closed this post and wont read it again, fix ur issues with bytro, for me there is more important issues to worry about like player getting bored after few month and leaving the game.
    • MarkAchkar wrote:

      look my silly friends, when i see planes patrolling my lands, even if i have nap i go to war! i send a 30min warning to withdraw and never enter my airspace or i go to war, if u r weak and afraid ofc u dont want war, maybe i see u someday in the battlefield and i will show u how silly i am. i closed this post and wont read it again, fix ur issues with bytro, for me there is more important issues to worry about like player getting bored after few month and leaving the game.
      Yeah but this update completely removes the ability to decide whether or not to go to war with a country for patrolling their lands. With this update, not even you will be able to send a 30 minute warning. Not sure who thought it'd be a good idea to remove more ingame powers from the players.
    • King Draza Mihajlovic wrote:

      Restrisiko wrote:

      This is the worst thing about the whole stupid thing, that such a serious change again was not announced before it comes into running games. In certain circumstances the whole map is broken now.
      I myself have the case on a 25p map with elite AI, where my usual patrols at the borders has brought me suddenly
      without warning 3 wars, as I discovered when I came to the map the next time after the update.

      Planning and construction of nearly three months destroyed in a surprise attack (and not for the first time), Congratulations Bytro, good job
      no offense, but you had 15 minutes to recall your fighters....
      You misunderstood what I meant:

      As usual, before I left the map, also on Monday evening I set some security patrols at some areas of my borders.
      Partially, due to the geographic location, sometimes the center of the patrol circles is located in provinces of neighboring AI countries.
      When I returned to the map on Tuesday evening, some hours after the update, I suddenly had wars with 3 elite AI countries.
      I didn't know that there would be a change because there was no reference from Bytro.

      It happens on a 25p world map with elite AI. I think I don't have to explain what that means - the map is in the ass now, and almost 3 months of play time ...

      The unnecessary reason for it is, that Bytro is, once again, not capable to announce a fundamental change of the rules at least a few days before, so that the players / customers can adjust to it.



      But no matter for me, this is the REXIT now. :thumbsup:
      I just would like the opportunity still use to wish everyone a lot of fun and success in the future, and even further many funny surprises ...

      Browser games are an ingenious business idea to lure out money -
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    • Restrisiko wrote:

      But no matter for me, this is the REXIT now.
      I just would like the opportunity still use to wish everyone a lot of fun and success in the future, and even further many funny surprises ...
      Would you look at that, looks like Bytro just lost a paying customer because of this update, unless you used winning GM, in which case they just lost a valuable member of the forum and a player.

      I'm sorry to hear that you are going Restrisiko.
      Forum Gang Commissar



      I changed it for you Dia <3