Transport ships

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  • Transport ships

    Hi, we have now in the research tree transport ships.
    Level 1:

    up to Level 4

    I like to have now this research option to improve the ship. But I think you have made them to fast.
    Level 1 is running with 27 km/h = 14,5 kn.
    Level 4 is running with 45 km/h = 24 kn.

    A Battleship level 6 is running with 42 km/h in CoW. !!!

    So most cargo vessels at the beginning of WW2 have a cruising speed from ~10 kn = 19 km/h. Okay that's to slow for CoW, but I think the devs must reduce the speed form level 1 to 24 km/h. Level 2 to 27 km/h (old speed of transport ships) up to 33 km/h for level 4.

    Subs level 3 running with 36 km/h now, and they must have a chance to get the transport ships.

    Would you like to play with your friends in a game where gold is banned?


    Watch for the next season starts in September!
  • As for ship speeds, in-game ships are somewhat inconsistent in their relative speeds between types of ships ---- something I've been meaning to address for a while.

    Here are the stated speeds of some of the historical classes of WW2-era transport ships:

    U.S. Liberty Ship: 20 to 21 kmh

    U.S. Victory Ship: 28 to 31 kmh

    Canadian Park Ships: 20 kmh

    As you can see, the original in-game transport ship (27 kmh) was as fast or faster than the most prevalent cargo transport ships of WW2, so the original speed was well chosen.

    Even the U.S. Navy's "fast" troopships had a top speed of 31 kmh. Only converted civilian liners like the Queen Mary (53 kmh) were faster. I am unaware of any cargo ship that could sustain a top speed of 45 kmh (28 mph, or 24 knots). By comparison, modern container ships have speeds of 30 to 43 kmh, and for reasons of fuel efficiency their cruising speed is usually closer to the bottom of that range than the top.
  • Xarus wrote:



    Subs level 3 running with 36 km/h now, and they must have a chance to get the transport ships.
    There was a huge difference in speed between submerged subs running electrical engines (about 8 knots), and surfaced subs running diesel engines (up to 20 knots, or even more). Submerged subs had no chance to pursue cargo ships, so they had to wait for the ships to come to them. When the cargo ships had no escort (pre-convoy era), they could surface and pursue if the initial attack failed (or actually, they would launch the initial attack surfaced also - this meant they could use their deck gun for the kill and save precious torpedoes), but after the introduction of the convoys with escorts, they just had the one shot until the convoy was out of range.
    When the enemy is driven back, we have failed. When he is cut off, encircled and dispersed, we have succeeded. - Aleksandr Suvorov.
  • @MontanaBB:

    Xarus wrote:

    So most cargo vessels at the beginning of WW2 have a cruising speed from ~10 kn = 19 km/h. Okay that's to slow for CoW, but I think the devs must reduce the speed form level 1 to 24 km/h. Level 2 to 27 km/h (old speed of transport ships) up to 33 km/h for level 4.
    I wrote - that 10 kn are to slow for CoW. Because the game balance is build for transport ships with 27 km/h. If we made the first level a little bit slower then the original it will be good.

    Yes and that's not the real speed form history, but the non motorized infantry is "running" with 25 km/h, so we have a look to the other units to find a way.

    Would you like to play with your friends in a game where gold is banned?


    Watch for the next season starts in September!
  • Speeds are a bit too fast... But TBH, only high level subs should be able to catch the highest level cargo ship. Besides, you'd want to put the submarines in the way of the 'lanes', not make them go chasing after long-gone transports. That's how it is currently(I'm not in the meta, but that's how it is usually used...?), and that wouldn't change with faster transports.

    An alternative to changing the speeds on the transports would be to make the research more dispersed, such as changing the unlock of level 4 from day 24 to day 32 and level 3 from day 16 to day 18. It slows the progression of the speed instead of directly changing the speed(though that may be done in conjunction with the other).
  • Thanks for the feedback.

    Transport ships will change as following:

    Speed beforehand (km/h)
    lvl1: 27
    lvl2: 33
    lvl3: 39
    lvl4: 45

    Speed new (km/h):
    lvl1: 23
    lvl2: 30
    lvl3: 38
    lvl4: 45

    Day of availability before:
    lvl1: 1
    lvl2: 8
    lvl3: 16
    lvl4: 24

    Day of availability new:
    lvl1: 1
    lvl2: 8
    lvl3: 16
    lvl4: 32

    +increased research costs by ~80%
  • @freezy: The proposed L4 speed (45 kmh) is way too fast, especially relative to other naval units. As I pointed out above, there was no mass produced cargo ship that could sustain a top speed of 45 kmh. Moreover, 45 kmh is substantially faster than the concurrently available L4 battleship (36 kmh), and almost as fast as the L5 cruiser (48 kmh) ---- both of which are unrealistically slow compared to their real world counterparts. American fast battleships available in 1943-44 had full-load top speeds of 32 knots (60 kmh), and heavy cruisers had top speeds of 33 knots (61 kmh). As I pointed out above, with the exception of a handful of high-end civilian passenger liners that were converted to troop ships, no WW2 transport could hope to outrun a modern battleship or cruiser ---- battleships and cruisers were nearly twice as fast as U.S. Victory ships.

    I suggest that you slow down, and not rush to implement the new transport ships, without reviewing the speeds of all naval units. It is important that the transport speeds not only be semi-realistic, but they be substantially correct relative to other naval units.

    It's probably time for a critical review of the speeds of ALL naval units.

    The post was edited 2 times, last by MontanaBB ().

  • Xarus wrote:

    We will test this it give our feedback if they available.
    That we will...

    As for what Montana said... Yeah, those do kinda need a review in some way(I mean, I always found it weird that the nuclear battleship could outrun the destroyers that are supposed to be with them for escort. Even after the elite units were implemented.). But this is Frontline Pioneer... Obviously, the changes still need to go through some testing for the transports.

    And they've already been implemented into FP, so it can be tested now.

    The post was edited 2 times, last by NovaTopaz ().

  • Keep in mind that transport ship lvl 4 will become available on the day when battleship and submarine lvl 6 become available, too. So on that day the transport ship has the same speed as subs, and is only slightly faster than battleship, but slower than destroyers/cruisers. This seems reasonable to us. It is also not unrealistic.
    Maybe this will also give some value to the cruiser, who could fulfill a new role then as it can outrun the convoys.
    Also Transport ships wont have an elite level after their max level (lvl4), so if you need an additional edge you can still research the elite levels for the other ships with which all of them should be faster than transports.

    Please also keep in mind that balancing is not 100% done on realism. While we took realism into account (=convoys should not be slower than subs, and we are already on the bottom there considering that lvl 6 subs now have the same speed as max level convoys), we also took game balance and game design into account.
    And yes for the higher levels we are using higher class passenger ships as reference as you can see in the unit details. While they were not used super often, they were still practicable and it was certainly possible to use them. Since this is a "what if" game you as ruler could totally focus on equipping your transports with some faster gear. Just like you could also throw all your resources into building 20 nuke bombers in CoW, while in reality they have been more sparse.
    If we balance for realism only we would have to rebalance the whole game and change all values, not just that of one unit. Since we don't do that we only balance relative to the values of other units and try to keep it somewhat realistic in that regard.
    We adjusted the values already and made a compromise based on your feedback, so we will keep these values for now.

    Ships will release next tuesday.
  • freezy wrote:

    Please also keep in mind that balancing is not 100% done on realism.
    Freezy, clearly you have a different understanding of "balancing" than I do. There is often a lot of talk in these discussions of "balancing," when it's often those resulting changes which create the worst imbalances. More often than not, it is the constant tinkering, and the insertion of completely unrealistic weapons/vehicle capabilities that create the imbalances in the first place.

    If you want to speed up the game, that's fine. But then the relative speeds of all related units need to be increased as well. Battleship and cruiser speeds are already too slow, so now you want to create a fantasy class of super transports that go zipping around at 45 kmh ---- a speed that modern cargo ships in 2017 can't sustain? Come on, that's just plain goofy. And the naval unit tech tree I'm referencing has L4 battleships (36 kmh) and L5 cruisers (48 kmh) available on Day 24 ---- the same day you propose to make the new L4 transport ships (45 kmh) available. Are you looking at a different tech tree than I am?

    The original 27 kmh speed for COW transports was actually too fast for the vast majority of the cargo ships that were available in 1939; if anything, the initial L1 transport should be about 13 knots or 24 kmh ---- keeping in mind that 1939-40 convoys were organized as "fast convoys" (13 knots, 24 kmh) and "slow convoys" (9 knots, 17 kmh) based on the speeds of the available cargo ships. Most of the British Merchant Navy in 1939 was WW1-era tech. The idea of a 45 kmh (24 knot) heavy cargo ship is just nuts, when the state of the art for mass-produced cargo ships in 1943-45 was 17 knots or 31 kmh. You propose two new transport ship levels above that real world, state-of-the-art speed of 31 kmh ---- 38 kmh and 45 kmh. And at the same time, the existing naval unit speeds handicap battleships and cruisers by giving them unrealistically low speeds.

    Something ain't right with the thinking behind these proposed changes, my friend. Stop. Slow down. Think before you act.
  • Maybe you should also slow down a bit an reread my initial post, because transport ship lvl4 availability was changed from day 24 to day 32, the same day as lvl6 availability of the other naval units. Lvl4 is the max level for transport ships.

    Thanks for the history lesson in mass produced cargo ships, but as I said in my last post: There were also passenger ships capable of faster speeds, and we even reference those in some of the unit details of the higher transport ship levels. So while it may not have been that common to use many of them, it was technically possible and not a fantasy. Since Call of War is alot of what-if, you can focus your resources differently than it was done in RL, for example having a lot more nuke bombers or railroad guns than there were in RL. Or you could focus on mass producing the biggest and heaviest tanks army possible, while in RL there was no capacity for that. Or researching the most advanced rocket tech as a nation that historically did not have access to that level of tech. So why shouldn't it be possible to also have more and better transport ships if you as ruler decide to put the resources into that. Since the research is not cheap it is certainly an investment.

    The decision for the speeds was actually done by a colleague which is very knowledgable about ww2 era tech and history in general, but who is also very knowledgable in game balance. The values you see are the combination and compromise of both. We will certainly discuss your feedback again, but prepare to play with the current values on next tuesday.

    And now let's relax a little.
  • MontanaBB wrote:

    ...
    ..available on Day 24 ---- the same day you propose to make the new L4 transport ships (45 kmh) available. Are you looking at a different tech tree than I am?
    ...

    freezy wrote:

    Thanks for the feedback.

    Transport ships will change as following:

    Speed beforehand (km/h)
    lvl1: 27
    lvl2: 33
    lvl3: 39
    lvl4: 45

    Speed new (km/h):
    lvl1: 23
    lvl2: 30
    lvl3: 38
    lvl4: 45

    Day of availability before:
    lvl1: 1
    lvl2: 8
    lvl3: 16

    lvl4: 24

    Day of availability new:
    lvl1: 1
    lvl2: 8
    lvl3: 16
    lvl4: 32

    +increased research costs by ~80%

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    - more or less cleverly camouflaged as a real game sometimes.
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    Warning! Texts above this signature may contain traces of irony! :whistling:
  • Here is the reality of 1945 state-of-the-art naval technology:

    Type XXI U-boat: 17 knots (31.5 kmh) -- submerged, faster than surfaced;

    Gearing-class destroyers: 36 knots (67 kmh);

    Juneau-class light cruisers: 32.5 knots (60 kmh);

    Oregon City-class heavy cruisers: 32.5 knots (60 kmh);

    Iowa-class fast battleships: 32.5 knots (60 kmh) -- full load;

    Essex-class fleet aircraft carriers: 32.7 knots (60 kmh);

    Midway-class large fleet carriers: 33 knots (61 kmh).

    Moreover, these are the ships' top speeds, not their typical cruising speeds, which are usually 55 to 65% of their top speeds.


  • https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_Europa_(1928)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_Bremen_(1928)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_Normandie

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RMS_Queen_Mary




    They where simply rebuilt with level 4 - deck superstructures cut off and done - similar / reverse as with auxiliary aircraft carriers ;)
    Incidentally, Germany never had a completed aircraft carrier; as did many other playable nations also not...

    Browser games are an ingenious business idea to lure out money -
    - more or less cleverly camouflaged as a real game sometimes.
    So beware of caltrops, spring-guns and booby traps. :00008185:
    Warning! Texts above this signature may contain traces of irony! :whistling:

    The post was edited 2 times, last by Restrisiko ().