15% Defensive bonus to native provinces

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    • 15% Defensive bonus to native provinces

      Last game change gave 15% defense bonus to units defending native provinces. I understand the logic but 15 is too much to have it everywhere in addition to the existent defenders advantages and i will elaborate!

      Most units have higer stats on defense than on offense meaning that you already need more units of the same type to break through. In addition to this recent changes gave to all an interceptor so now players can scout and see enemy formations. Lastly, attacker gets -50% movement speed on enemy grounds.

      Don't you think all those advantages of defender make the game very slow and unfair? It drives players to defensive policy, reducing the viable strategies to maybe 1?
    • 15% really is not that much compared to fortresses. In addition the attacker currently has a huge advantage as he knows where he is going to attack and can mass troops prior to going in. The defender if they choose to defend their whole border is spread thin. IMO the bonus allows you to have a reaction time. Also it will toughen up the AI's a little bit, which are currently way to easy to take out.

      Let it play for a month and see how it works. If everyone agrees it makes the game way to difficult, they can always back it down.
      "A good plan, violently executed now, is better than a perfect plan next week." - General George S. Patton, Jr.

      "Do, or do not. There is no try" - Yoda
    • DxC wrote:

      I kind of like it and kind of don't, but it is an extreme change. Now most battles will have one side weakened by 15% and the other side strengthened by 15%. I guess we'll see how it goes..
      I would suggest that the new 15% defensive bonus reinforces the importance of standoff weapons like artillery, tactical bombers, and naval gunfire from battleships. Simply clanging two stacks of opposed ground units together is always the best way to maximize casualties on both sides.
    • cchyt wrote:

      Last game change gave 15% defense bonus to units defending native provinces. I understand the logic but 15 is too much to have it everywhere in addition to the existent defenders advantages and i will elaborate!

      Most units have higer stats on defense than on offense meaning that you already need more units of the same type to break through. In addition to this recent changes gave to all an interceptor so now players can scout and see enemy formations. Lastly, attacker gets -50% movement speed on enemy grounds.

      Don't you think all those advantages of defender make the game very slow and unfair? It drives players to defensive policy, reducing the viable strategies to maybe 1?
      Let's also remember that is on your native provinces, IE your starting territory. Nowhere else would that bonus work(which means it don't work everywhere), which makes it wholly useless in a lot of cases(in the case of the Antartica map, completely useless unless using artillery at the start, and even then it is kinda useless). Unless you have brought the fight to the home territory, and then there should be more stiff resistance from units there, no?

      The advantages of defending are numerous, but by defending, you give every tactical advantage to the enemy. They can decide when, where, and how to strike. You have to defend every single border province, and that is typically a large chuck of your actual provinces. And to have the luxury of elastic defense, you need fast units, which typically are not better at defense than they are at offense.
    • I have noticed that Rockets fired from your core provinces seem to list the 15% bonus regardless of target, which is handy but possibly outside the spirit of the home defense bonus given the range.

      I can't say as i am a fan of this as of yet, but given my style of using artillery it won't affect my approach a lot. I might grow to like it, or I may not. Jury is still out.
      War is a game that is played with a smile. If you can't smile, grin. If you can't grin keep out of the way til you can. - Winston Churchill



      VorlonFCW
      Main Administrator
      EN Support Team | Bytro Labs Gmbh

      >>> Click Here to submit a bug report or support ticket <<<
    • Reading the comments made it clear that players did not completely realise how big of a change this 15% defense bonus is. firtly, bonus stack meaning units defending on lvl 1 fort get 53% defensive bonus, are we serious? :P

      Also, players will need to take completely different approach on 22 and 10 players maps. i could give more examples but it does not make sense, i am trying to understand the reason to add this bonus, keep the new players in maybe?

      Moreoever, this changes comes after giving an interceptor for free. If you combine those facts with the non-ending air fights good players do not have viable strategies to beat other good players.

      How to attack when defender can see you very early for free, you move with half speed on their province and they get extra 15% defense bonus.

      Why all this overprotection to native provinces?
    • You only get the home defense 15% bonus if you control your core province. If the player doesn't have defending units, no bonus.

      The bonus does make forts more valuable in core provinces. In the past, most core provinces didn't have forts. More players may build forts in at least some of their cores if they anticipate having to defend their cores. If a player has a level 1 fort on their core province, players will have to consider that in their attacking strategies. A level 1 fort still needs defenders. If you eliminate most or all of the defenders, the fort doesn't do much. The defender still has to be able to counter air and artillery attacks. The defender still has to be able to survive the attack. A level 1 fortification in some core urban provinces starts to have more value if you might have to defend them.

      A force with superior tactics and/or force will still have a better chance of winning. The attacker gets to choose where and when to attack.

      Most battles aren't fought in core provinces controlled by the original owner.

      Players will have to adjust their attacking tactics to account for this home defense bonus.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Lawrence Czl: Most battles aren't fought in core provinces controlled by the original owner. ().

    • Lawrence Czl wrote:

      Most battles aren't fought in core provinces

      I can see Lawrence's point. Sure the first week or so battles are typically fought in or near one sides core. After that the front line of a battle can be several days march from the core for either side. There may be a last stand battle fought at the core, but the "main event" of a war is frequently on non core territory. I feel that if an enemy has reached my core with any sizable force that I have already lost. However with the core strength bonus there will be an advantage to keeping longer range units such as railroad guns in core provinces and luring the enemy into a trap.




      I am not sure how new players will be affected. There are already a lot of complicated game mechanics to try to explain to new players. Trying also to explain that in addition to infantry having a higher defense stat than offense, and tanks being weak in cities, now they need to figure on 15% stronger enemy units and 15% less damage being done by their units on their first battle against an AI. Sure we can make a long post in the forum explaining the mechanics of combat to rookies, but how many actually look here before giving up on the game already? There are enough players who try this game and quit after 15 minutes. Add additional complications to the combat formula and I am afraid more players will become discouraged easily.
      War is a game that is played with a smile. If you can't smile, grin. If you can't grin keep out of the way til you can. - Winston Churchill



      VorlonFCW
      Main Administrator
      EN Support Team | Bytro Labs Gmbh

      >>> Click Here to submit a bug report or support ticket <<<
    • My three cents worth on this.

      I think the 15% defensive bonus in your core provinces is an excellent idea. There are a number of reasons for this.

      1. It makes the game more 'realistic'. In reality, there is always a difference between men who are fighting to defend their homeland, and men who are enlisted in an army to fight in a foreign country far far away. Soldiers who are defending their own country, where the consequences of defeat will mean that your own cities will be pillaged and your own women raped, typically fight more tenaciously and have higher morale. Soldiers who have been conscripted and are sent to fight in a paddy-field in a country that they have never heard of before (think Vietnam) are bound to have lower morale.

      2. It allows for more intelligent game play. At present, there are too many players whose idea of playing the game is to research one kind of unit (usually light tanks) as high as possible, spam those and go on a rampage. These players dislike changes like a defensive bonus, because the only way they know how to play this game is to spam one or two kinds of units, mass them up into a stack and put them on autopilot to head to the enemy capital. This change will force these players to do a bit more thinking about their tactics, which will make for more interesting game play all around.

      3. It allows those units that have previously been under-utilised (like militia and anti-tank guns) to come into their own. I have always used a mix of fortifications, militia and AT guns to very good effect against LT spammers, and this will make the combination even more effective. For those who want to spam LTs and overrun the world with them, I would say that no such thing ever happened in reality, so think of this change as a welcome improvement to the game system that will make the game as a whole more realistic, and adjust your playing tactics accordingly, instead of whingeing about it.
    • MartinB wrote:

      At present, there are too many players whose idea of playing the game is to research one kind of unit (usually light tanks) as high as possible, spam those and go on a rampage.
      Heh. Bring on the "rampage." I love nothing more than to see an unprotected light tank column ---- with no AA units and no fighter CAP ---- rolling into sight. First they run into my defensive ground units, including AT, and then they get massacred by my tactical bomber wing. Once TBs reach research L3 and higher, a big TB wing of 15 to 20 squadrons, operating in SBDE-efficient 5-squadron formations, has a huge advantage over unprotected armor. And LT brigades are not inexpensive or quick to replace when you're losing 12 or 15 of them in a day.

      If you're still fighting and winning by using the "spammed light tank rampage" after Day 10 or so of the game, it's not because you're an awesome player. It's because your opponents SUCK.
    • I like the idea in theory, but I'm not sure it is great for the game popularity. Changes that increase defense makes it more tedious for old and new players that are engaged and motivated to see the fruits of their efforts. I know this is a strategy game, but, In general, people like more immediate gratification. The engaged people are who actually drive the game. The AI an AI-like people don't.
    • MontanaBB wrote:

      Heh. Bring on the "rampage." I love nothing more than to see an unprotected light tank column ---- with no AA units and no fighter CAP ---- rolling into sight.
      I like it even better when you have a 'clever' LT spammer, who has added some AA guns and maybe a couple of ATs. More challenging because if you use tactical bombers, you end up taking heavy losses to your air force from the AA units. So then I start having to use a combination of artillery, anti-tank guns, infantry and fortifications to beat that stack. Usually not a problem, because the AA guns slow them down to a snail's pace, and you have more than enough time to mobilise your defences to the max and concentrate them at the schwerpunkt.

      You are right in that if you are winning with LT spamming tactics, it's probably because you are just beating up on noobs. But that does happen quite a lot.
    • MartinB wrote:

      Usually not a problem, because the AA guns slow them down to a snail's pace, and you have more than enough time to mobilise your defences to the max and concentrate them at the schwerpunkt.
      Exactly.

      And it is a perfect example of why good players are never over-dependent on any one kind of unit. When enemy formations are well-protected with AA, then hit them with artillery and use your defensive advantage. When the enemy formations are large and AA-protected, that invites the use of nukes. *Boom!* And 15 to 25 enemy units disappear.

      Good players understand how and when to use the full range of units.