Redesign of the Research System

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    • Quasi-duck wrote:

      Once again, public opinion has show that Dia types way too much. I have still not read any more than one paragraph of what Dia has said for this whole thread.
      You refuse to show me any regard and yet you expect me to care a whit about what you think on this subject.

      ~O~

      Well, unlike all the naysayers here, I've proposed a reasonable idea at revamping the research system. I offered a sound and logical description of how it could improve the game. But, rather than simply arguing against my ideas in a constructive way, the bulk of the responses has been akin to "You are stupid, your ideas suck, everything is good as is. So shut up."

      You know what? Instead of trying to tear down my ideas, how about proposing some ideas of your own, people.

      ~O~

      I won't name names, because I am nice. But I'm getting tired of the droolers. The next person that wants to counter one of my arguments had better use constructive criticism. Short of that, I'm not listening any more.
      It seemed like such a waste to destroy an entire battle station just to eliminate one man. But Charlie knew that it was the only way to ensure the absolute and total destruction of Quasi-duck, once and for all.

      The saying, "beating them into submission until payday", is just golden...pun intended.

      R.I.P. Snickers <3

    • Diabolical wrote:

      Well, unlike all the naysayers here, I've proposed a reasonable idea at revamping the research system. I offered a sound and logical description of how it could improve the game. But, rather than simply arguing against my ideas in a constructive way, the bulk of the responses has been akin to "You are stupid, your ideas suck, everything is good as is. So shut up."

      You know what? Instead of trying to tear down my ideas, how about proposing some ideas of your own, people
      Just because you have an idea doesn't mean it is a good one. The research system is probably the most equal and fairest part of the game.
      :00000441: Forum Gang Commissar :00000441:

      Black Lives Matter!!!!! All Lives Matter!!!!! :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:



    • (always enjoy reading your novels Diabolical hehehe)
      Personally i would like to get into a well rounded military sooner rather then later and does this mean
      they have to increase the research slots...YES and thats probably why your getting so much pessimism.
      However again personally i see the suggestion of redesign of the research very creative and lateral thinking.
      Redesign you say!!! again more pessimism.
      The capacity to research Infantry,armor,air,naval, from day one and still in accordance with
      the time line at which new technology is introduced would have no negative bearing or disadvantage.
      (But what about the big Gold spenders) they will research it all and crush me sir...NO absolutely NO
      not in accordance with regard to the introduction time of new technology...mmm GOOD
      (But what about my resources i wont have enough) Dont worry...Be happy we will increase your base
      load out from day one and give a comparable amount equivalent to maximising your day one potential.
      And personally i think its a bloody brilliant suggestion.
      :thumbsup:

      The post was edited 1 time, last by WarPtyLtd ().

    • WarPtyLtd wrote:

      increase the research slots...YES and thats probably why your getting so much pessimism.
      However again personally i see the suggestion of redesign of the research very creative and lateral thinking.
      Redesign you say!!! again more pessimism.
      I'm all for more research slots, but 5 is way too many. 3 is as many as I think there should be.
      :00000441: Forum Gang Commissar :00000441:

      Black Lives Matter!!!!! All Lives Matter!!!!! :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:



    • Quasi-duck wrote:

      WarPtyLtd wrote:

      increase the research slots...YES and thats probably why your getting so much pessimism.
      However again personally i see the suggestion of redesign of the research very creative and lateral thinking.
      Redesign you say!!! again more pessimism.
      I'm all for more research slots, but 5 is way too many. 3 is as many as I think there should be.
      But the whole point of having 5 research slots isn't to speed up research in order to advance faster, it's to speed up research for a higher prerequisites load. And, it is also to force people to think more about their research budgets. Right now, for most players, one can usually keep both research slots working pretty-much non-stop throughout the game. Occasionally, for me at least, there might be a Goods shortage or a Rares shortage, but usually, the Market can alleviate that, and sometimes the slots have to sit idle.


      Well, with the 5 slots idea, some of the slots might sit idle a whole lot more. For example, maybe you've researched Fighters and Tac Bombers to their current maximum level but you just aren't interested in researching Naval Bombers. Maybe you can afford the extra resources to do so, but your little nation is in the middle of Asia and you're surrounded by allies so the likelihood of ever needing Naval Bombers is quite moot. So, the Air Units Research Slot will go idle for a time, until the next level of research becomes available for Fighters and Tac Bombers.


      In the meantime, your research dollars are pushing your Armored development as far as it can go in more Armored branches because you've already maxed out your favorite ones (again, at the currently-available level) and so, this time you are trying to max out the Armored Car because you feel like trying to use their scouting feature more. Your wildcard (5th.) slot is helping to facilitate this. Or maybe you aren't researching anything in the Armored group because you are saving up your resources for some more-expensive Special Group techs that are about to be made available at the next day-change, and so, not only are you not utilizing your Armored Group slot, but you aren't using your Wildcard slot since it's the only slot that can be used in the Special Group and you want it to be available the moment that the day-change happens.


      A part of the point is, that having the higher number of slots, but with tech group restrictions, pretty much keeps the overall increase in research limited to the practicality of the need, so, rather than having a locked set of 2 slots for anything, you only get 1 each for the 4 basic groups (not including the Special group) and the 5th. is your wildcard. Having this many slots doesn't mean you'll always use them. Yet, having the increased cross-path prerequisites would force you to use more of the slots to advance some of even your favorite techs to their higher levels.


      So, as I had pointed out in an earlier post, you might be forced to research a higher level Submarine before being able to research a higher level Naval Bomber. By making the prerequisites wider and more varied, this game's research system could take on a whole lot more meaning than just maxing out your favorite units as soon as they become available. I want to see more strategic thinking involved in the unit upgrade choices, not just the generalized unit choices.


      For example, instead of just researching Light Tanks and Tac Bombers, I want to be forced to judge -- within reason -- how to decide whether level 4 Light Tanks is worth the extra research requirements of lower-level non-Light Tanks (i.e., level 2 Tank Destroyer) or maybe sticking to the level 3 Light Tank for a time (beyond the timed availability of level 4) so that I can go ahead and spend more research dollars on my Navy, for a change, or maybe I want that level 4 Light Tank very badly, so I go ahead and afford the research into the now-required Infantry level 3 and Tank Destroyer level 2 even though my Infantry numbers are pretty bleak and my Tank Destroyers are non-existent. Both of these might be required prerequisites before researching level 4 Light Tanks.


      Having the wider requirements slows down the advancement (at least a little) of any single tech though not just the "common" ones that some people might complain about (i.e., the "everybody just uses bombers" thinking, etc.) This is a part of the beauty of the proposal...it's not to force people to use less of a thing, but its to make them think more about their choices. One can still hyperfocus on their favorite tech paths, though it will be harder to do so. But it's also harder to focus on any other singular tech paths.


      I'm undecided whether this would help or hurt the noobs. But since the earliest techs would be largely unaffected by the goal of having additional prerequisites, for all practicality purposes, the earliest techs should actually be able to be researched faster because of having all 5 slots with few (if any) additional prerequisites added. So then, the earliest research choices will be more dependent on resource availability (and balancing that against construction) than prerequisites. The jury is out on whether that balancing decision would either help or hurt noobish players.
      It seemed like such a waste to destroy an entire battle station just to eliminate one man. But Charlie knew that it was the only way to ensure the absolute and total destruction of Quasi-duck, once and for all.

      The saying, "beating them into submission until payday", is just golden...pun intended.

      R.I.P. Snickers <3

      The post was edited 3 times, last by Diabolical ().

    • Quasi-duck wrote:

      Diabolical wrote:

      it's to speed up research for a higher prerequisites load.
      Still sounds awful and still didn't read more than a paragraph.
      And, until you do read the whole thing, your opinion about the issue has no weight. It's no small proposal. And it requires no small explanation.
      It seemed like such a waste to destroy an entire battle station just to eliminate one man. But Charlie knew that it was the only way to ensure the absolute and total destruction of Quasi-duck, once and for all.

      The saying, "beating them into submission until payday", is just golden...pun intended.

      R.I.P. Snickers <3

    • Diabolical wrote:

      Quasi-duck wrote:

      Diabolical wrote:

      it's to speed up research for a higher prerequisites load.
      Still sounds awful and still didn't read more than a paragraph.
      And, until you do read the whole thing, your opinion about the issue has no weight. It's no small proposal. And it requires no small explanation.


      Doesn't matter man, I doubt more than 5 people read the whole thing anyway. Stop typing so much and spamming and then maybe you will get support for your idea because people actually read your posts. Half the time you go on long winded stories that have no bearing on what you talk about.
      :00000441: Forum Gang Commissar :00000441:

      Black Lives Matter!!!!! All Lives Matter!!!!! :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:



    • Quasi-duck wrote:

      Diabolical wrote:

      it's to speed up research for a higher prerequisites load.
      Still sounds awful and still didn't read more than a paragraph.
      I actually bothered to try to read the entire post and I agree with Quasi-duck, it sound awful. I remember there was a thread a while ago on winning research slots within each game, and I think that might be a better idea. You start with two or three research slots, and for every hundred or so victory points you control, you gain an extra research slot. That Idea was more thought out on the thread, so If anyone comes across it, please leave the link.
      "White Fang knew the law well: To oppress the weak and obey the strong"
      Jack London, White Fang

      My parents once told me not to play with matches, so I built a flamethrower

    • Quasi-duck wrote:

      Diabolical wrote:

      Quasi-duck wrote:

      Diabolical wrote:

      it's to speed up research for a higher prerequisites load.
      Still sounds awful and still didn't read more than a paragraph.
      And, until you do read the whole thing, your opinion about the issue has no weight. It's no small proposal. And it requires no small explanation.
      Doesn't matter man, I doubt more than 5 people read the whole thing anyway. Stop typing so much and spamming and then maybe you will get support for your idea because people actually read your posts. Half the time you go on long winded stories that have no bearing on what you talk about.
      You have no idea how many people read my works. Besides, it isn't spam if it's relevant....and I'm always relevant. Also, my "long-winded stories" are either in context or at least anecdotal examples to help illustrate a point. I may talk a lot, but I choose my words carefully, especially in the written form. That you don't care to read my posts is no excuse for you to defame them. So, in the future, do yourself a favor and keep your comments about my content to yourself unless and until you are willing to read them in the full and in context.

      A half-studied source is not refutable. So, read my posts fully before trying to counter them. When you try to counter my arguments without actually reading them, you only illustrate your ludicrousness and you sound like a liberal Democrat spinner on a political talk show, unwilling to actually review the source of that which they debate...and usually only getting their opinions from anti-society podcasts by little-known authors.

      Oh, and by the way, I'm raising the size of my fonts to help you read my words. Obviously, you must need help with your poor vision. I figure a Giant Print Bible might be needed to. You should invest in one for yourself. They aren't much more than a Bible with a regular-sized font.

      NukeRaider33 wrote:

      I actually bothered to try to read the entire post and I agree with Quasi-duck, it sound awful. I remember there was a thread a while ago on winning research slots within each game, and I think that might be a better idea. You start with two or three research slots, and for every hundred or so victory points you control, you gain an extra research slot. That Idea was more thought out on the thread, so If anyone comes across it, please leave the link.
      This would unbalance the game between players within a match....above that which is rightfully earned through victories on the battlefield.
      It seemed like such a waste to destroy an entire battle station just to eliminate one man. But Charlie knew that it was the only way to ensure the absolute and total destruction of Quasi-duck, once and for all.

      The saying, "beating them into submission until payday", is just golden...pun intended.

      R.I.P. Snickers <3

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Diabolical ().

    • Diabolical wrote:

      You have no idea how many people read my works. Besides, it isn't spam if it's relevant....and I'm always relevant. Also, my "long-winded stories" are either in context or at least anecdotal examples to help illustrate a point. I may talk a lot, but I choose my words carefully, especially in the written form. That you don't care to read my posts is no excuse for you to defame them. So, in the future, do yourself a favor and keep your comments about my content to yourself unless and until you are willing to read them in the full and in context.

      A half-studied source is not refutable. So, read my posts fully before trying to counter them. When you try to counter my arguments without actually reading them, you only illustrate your ludicrousness and you sound like a liberal Democrat spinner on a political talk show, unwilling to actually review the source of that which they debate...and usually only getting their opinions from anti-society podcasts by little-known authors.

      Oh, and by the way, I'm raising the size of my fonts to help you read my words. Obviously, you must need help with your poor vision. I figure a Giant Print Bible might be needed to. You should invest in one for yourself. They aren't much more than a Bible with a regular-sized font.
      TB;DR (Too Big, Didn't Read).
      :00000441: Forum Gang Commissar :00000441:

      Black Lives Matter!!!!! All Lives Matter!!!!! :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:



    • There probably only "Kids" Diabolical
      Probably older one's in there 20s, 30, s40s, or might be who knows ?
      Thing is everyone have a right on forum to an opinion ect Judgment, That does not mean
      its coming with considered decisions or coming to a sensible conclusion "interpretation"
      Your knowledgeable and well Measured considered and restrained threads are appreciated by the
      wider audience. :thumbup:

    • Wel Diab, I actually bothered to read that whole post. It just confirmed my opinion. You spend 1,000 words expressing a statement that could have been made in a few sentences. And it doesn't adress any of the inherent problems of the proposal (for example, how to avoid people having "everything" with 150% more research?). It keeps screaming people have a wider range of choices, it says so again, and again, but doesn't provide any argument to support that, just some vague arguments about "maybe need tank destroyers to get higher level light tanks". Just sounds like more requirements, but also more slots, so in the end, no change.

      Wanna make this groundbreaking? Double cost, half time, simple as that.
      When the fake daddies are curtailed, we have failed. When their roller coaster tolerance is obliterated, their education funds are taken by Kazakhstani phishers, and their candy bars distributed between the Botswana youth gangs, we have succeeded.
      - BIG DADDY.

    • K.Rokossovski wrote:

      Just sounds like more requirements, but also more slots, so in the end, no change.
      First off, thank you for taking the time to read and consider my ideas. Well, I get it that it sound like it's just more requirements balanced with more slots. But the idea isn't just to complicate things for the sake of complicating them. It's more about forcing the players to make the hard choices about what they research. Just because they have more research path options doesn't mean that they are going to do more research, overall.

      It's more about whether or not following one path, or another, is worth those new wide-ranging requirements. At the same time, it also makes it harder to have a balance since you still won't be able to max out everything in any reasonable amount of timing. So choosing a path gets harder but a balanced set of lower level techs might be a reasonable choice.

      Obviously, not a lot of people are getting my proposal. I get that. And those who do are less than enthusiastic. Now I realize that this kind of change isn't really necessary, but I'm pressing for it because I envision making this game a little more of a thinker and less of a blunt zergling match.

      Any player, under my proposal, could still build the exact same way as before, in theory, but they'd have to really think about it and this new way might encourage them to expand their strategies to incorporate more options with what they choose to build. Also, proportionately, they should still have to spend about the same percentages of resources and time on their chosen paths. That can take the form of increased resource production or reduced research costs. But by making the choices more complex, people might discover that the variety of units available along the way makes it easier to explore those other strategies.

      Really, if you boil it all down, my idea here is a little more akin to Conflict of Nations in variety, though still more complex in scope.

      Quasi-duck wrote:

      That actually sounds pretty good, even better than a third research slot. Anything beats Dia's idea really.
      *blows raspberry
      It seemed like such a waste to destroy an entire battle station just to eliminate one man. But Charlie knew that it was the only way to ensure the absolute and total destruction of Quasi-duck, once and for all.

      The saying, "beating them into submission until payday", is just golden...pun intended.

      R.I.P. Snickers <3

    • Diabolical wrote:

      Now I realize that this kind of change isn't really necessary, but I'm pressing for it because I envision making this game a little more of a thinker and less of a blunt zergling match.
      It's a browser game mostly played by hard working middle aged men who want to play a nice, long, relaxed game and young boys in their teenage years who have to study for tests in school. The game is made so that these middle aged men spend their working money to advance themselves further in this game so they can complete the Anderson file at work, and so little boys can steal their mothers purses and buy $5 worth of gold.

      Changing the research system to make the game "a little more of a thinker" will most likely scare off large numbers of these groups, just do you don't have to buy Hearts of Iron.
      :00000441: Forum Gang Commissar :00000441:

      Black Lives Matter!!!!! All Lives Matter!!!!! :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:



    • I read the whole thing and I also consider it a terrible idea overall.

      The only think I would salvage would be the idea to have some "technologies" give you bonus speed to research other technologies, in order to avoid the "tech-dead-end" we all do.

      - Typically, people usually research destroyer (because subs) and then either cruiser or battleship, never both
      - People research max static AA or research it just enough to go toward SP-AA and then max it
      - People usually totally ignore Armored Car tech

      So it could be cool to have :
      - Armored Car tech 2 : Gives you +50% research speed for Light Tank tech 2
      - Light Tank tech 2 : Gives you +50% research speed for Armored Car tech 2
      - Destroyer Tech 2 : Gives you +33% research speed for Cruiser level 2 and BB level 2
      - Cruiser Tech 2 : Gives you +33% research speed for Destroyer level 2 and BB level 2
      - Battheship Tech 2 : Gives you +33% research speed for Cruiser level 2 and BB level 2

      This should make some technologies usually ignored a bit more worthwhile (since usually it is a question of research slot, not cost) while not making the "key" technologies any shorter to research.

    • Chimere wrote:

      The only think I would salvage would be the idea to have some "technologies" give you bonus speed to research other technologies, in order to avoid the "tech-dead-end" we all do.

      - Typically, people usually research destroyer (because subs) and then either cruiser or battleship, never both
      - People research max static AA or research it just enough to go toward SP-AA and then max it
      - People usually totally ignore Armored Car tech
      Now this sounds like a good idea,but why would I research a unit for a 50% decrease in research time another unit, when I could just research the other unit in the first place?
      :00000441: Forum Gang Commissar :00000441:

      Black Lives Matter!!!!! All Lives Matter!!!!! :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:



    • The trick is that you would not research A in order to later research B, but you would research B after having researched A because "oh well it is fast and it adds options"

      In a case where units A & B serve the same general purpose (cruiser and BB, armored cars and tanks, AA and SP-AA, arty and SP-arty), usually even though the units are a bit different you research one to the max and ignore the second to avoid having 2 types of units doing their main task not that well (since you did not have the time to research to the max anymore).
      But maybe if once you have a unit for a purpose, you can have a variant of that unit for half-price, then maybe we can get you interested.

      Typical example : I believe we all research light tanks and since light tanks are only a bit slower than Armored Cars and pack way more punch, we don't bother with Armored Cars. Maybe if after we have Light Tanks armored time to research was halved, we would consider "meh, maybe worth it for the extra speed and the scouting range".

    • Chimere wrote:

      Typical example : I believe we all research light tanks and since light tanks are only a bit slower than Armored Cars and pack way more punch, we don't bother with Armored Cars. Maybe if after we have Light Tanks armored time to research was halved, we would consider "meh, maybe worth it for the extra speed and the scouting range".
      Hmm, sounds good to me. I don't know how much use it would actually get, because there is already a lot of stuff to research. I mean, sure it might be quicker to research AC if I researched LT, but I still need those rockets and SBs for my nukes, and I need to max out BB and CV to get the nuclear versions. I guess it all really depends on how much these technologies are going to overlap.
      :00000441: Forum Gang Commissar :00000441:

      Black Lives Matter!!!!! All Lives Matter!!!!! :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: