Lost Tech development

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    • Lost Tech development

      Why is tech level development lost with units traded to or from other players?
      Even if you trade the unit back to the originator the tech level is still no longer increased with increased tech level development - why is this?
      Can this be corrected/fixed please?
      You can end up with numerous different level techs of the same item in the same stack.
      I can understand if you have items received from another country with higher tech of the item than you have for the same item - which I accept, but you should never have items in your ownership lower than the lowest tech level that you have developed for this item.
      Can CoW please fix this issue such that no item in your ownership is of a lower tech level than the tech level you have developed for that item.
      I know some players will probably argue that well then I want develop my tech of this item and just trade to you to increase its tech to your higher tech level for that item, and then have you trade it back to me - I see no problem with that. After all is that not what trade is all about?
      What are the chances that CoW designers will do anything about this? :D
    • Also why cant the level of tech development/research be retained/remembered if you stop tech research part of the way through research and change to researching tech on another unit/equipment. You then have to start from the beginning if you go back to researching that tech that you had already done some tech research on.
      When you change your mind midway through constructing a building, the level of construction is remembered when you go back to completing the building - you don't have to start from the beginning again. Why cant this occur with tech research? You cant deny that the part research has been done. Why should you have to start from the beginning again?
      You could also argue that why if you are part way through producing a unit, and stop, and start producing a different unit, that this is not also remembered such that you could come back to it later, but this can be another post later.
    • BattleIvan wrote:

      Why is tech level development lost with units traded to or from other players?
      Even if you trade the unit back to the originator the tech level is still no longer increased with increased tech level development - why is this?
      The intended behavior is this:

      Units traded will remain at their present researched level UNTIL a higher level of research is started and completed by the new owner.



      This means you can't "cheat" by trading units just for the last few minutes of research and then getting them back.



      If you find a pattern of traded units that do not behave as intended, please fill out a bug report.
      War is a game that is played with a smile. If you can't smile, grin. If you can't grin keep out of the way til you can. - Winston Churchill



      VorlonFCW
      Senior Game Operator
      EN Support Team | Bytro Labs Gmbh

      >>> Click Here to submit a bug report or support ticket <<<
    • WayneBo wrote:

      Post removed for rule-break by Forum moderator.
      Reply to quote edited out of post by Forum moderator

      Trade is Trade. Someone please correct me if there is any trade restrictions, that I am unaware of in trading for tech that is of a higher tech level than you, or for you trading higher tech to another player that is not at your tech level? Is this abuse? Is this not just Trading one thing for another. Which is what trade is all about - is it not?

      I dont know what this business about trading in the last few minutes of research is? This was not in any of my enquiries. My enquiries are three fold:-
      1. if someone trades you a unit of higher tech than yours, later when you get to the next level, will this unit progress in tech development?
      eg someone trades you a inf at lvl 2 and you are lvl 1, when you get to lvl 3 inf development, will this lvl 2 inf progress to lvl 3?;
      2. if someone trades you a unit of lower tech than you, will this unit go to your tech level? - NO, which leads me to:-
      3. if you have a traded unit that was traded to you at lvl 1, and didn't go to lv1 2, which you were at when the trade occurred. Will it go to lvl 3 when you eventually get to lvl 3?
      Is any of the above abuse of anything, or just trade as trade is? If there is any taking advantage of any situation then that is just that.
      Abuse to me implies harm, or misuse of something or someone for ones own benefit, usually to someone elses misfortune - this is not what I am doing or about.
      I don't want what would not be available to every other user/player of CoW.
      The idea of putting queries forward in this forum for me is to learn more about the mechanism of how CoW works for my benefit and to those reading.
      I take offence to being told I am abusing the game mechanics. Someone from CoW please tell me I am abusing the game mechanics, if that is what I am doing, because this is not what my intention was, but rather understand more about the game mechanics, to use them the best way, to get the best out of the game, which is what I would think everyone would want to do.
      Answers to all three tech development questions above from previous games is 1. No; 2. No and 3. No. I am current rechecking in a current CoW game to see if this has changed. I believe the answers to all three should be YES, hence this thread/post.

      The post was edited 5 times, last by Dr. Leipreachán: Edited out reply to rule breaks in this post ().

    • BattleIvan wrote:

      I dont know what this business about trading in the last few minutes of research is? This was not in any of my enquiries. My enquiries are three fold:-
      My post was simply an explanation of how it works and why. I thought it was fairly clear.


      VorlonFCW wrote:

      Units traded will remain at their present researched level UNTIL a higher level of research is started and completed by the new owner.


      Which means:


      BattleIvan wrote:

      eg someone trades you a inf at lvl 2 and you are lvl 1, when you get to lvl 3 inf development, will this lvl 2 inf progress to lvl 3?;
      yes


      BattleIvan wrote:

      3. if you have a traded unit that was traded to you at lvl 1, and didn't go to lv1 2, which you were at when the trade occurred. Will it go to lvl 3 when you eventually get to lvl 3?
      Yes. Edited / corrected thanks to Hans. This answer should be no. Units that are below current level will be orphaned forever.







      Most failures to advance are caused by the units being traded AFTER research has started as far as I know.









      BattleIvan wrote:

      Someone from CoW please tell me I am abusing the game mechanics, if that is what I am doing, because this is not what my intention was

      The current method of traded units only advancing when the next level of research is started after the trade is in place precisely to prevent abuse, misuse, and cheating.

      Your proposal for units to automatically level up and stay leveled up upon trade and trade back will allow cheaters to avoid research costs on a large scale.









      Ivan, considering your statement here:

      BattleIvan wrote:

      The idea of putting queries forward in this forum for me is to learn more about the mechanism of how CoW works for my benefit and to those reading.
      I am going to politely ask you to learn and ask questions in the "questions and answers" section of the forum, instead of the suggestions section. It is fairly clear that you are suggesting changes to the game which you do not understand either the current mechanics of, nor the chaos that your suggestions will bring.
      War is a game that is played with a smile. If you can't smile, grin. If you can't grin keep out of the way til you can. - Winston Churchill



      VorlonFCW
      Senior Game Operator
      EN Support Team | Bytro Labs Gmbh

      >>> Click Here to submit a bug report or support ticket <<<
    • I am sorry if my enquires/suggestions or even questions are in the wrong section of the forum - I will endeavour to put them in the right section.
      I am sorry if my threads/posts will cause chaos? I was not aware that they would. Maybe I am not understanding what the forum is for? Maybe I am not intelligent enough to use the forum, and should not use the forum at all - i dont want to cause chaos.
      -----------------------------
      I will leave - but would like to ''suggest'" clarification on what the purpose of "trade" is and why any trade can be called ''cheating".
      After all is not all trade you trading something you have to someone that doesn't have it. Taking your cheating analysis further you could argue that you trading someone else resources is saving them the cost of them building their industry to produce that resource for themselves - which using your cheating analysis would make them cheating - i would say they are just doing smart trading.
      Trade is trade, whether it is resources or units. If traded units get the benefit of your improved research, so be it - this happens in real life. Possible incorporate trade restrictions on quantities in this case, but to me this is just smart trading, and utilizing your trading partners for the benefit of all those involved. There would be no stopping neighbours doing it as well, enemy or friend, and no secret, or hiding that it can be done. Call it cheating if you like - i will call it smart trading.
      ----------------------------------
      Obviously this is a sore point, so I will not continue much longer. It is sad that tech trading, which would encourage team work and effective communication to get the best benefit to all concerned, is being called cheating, when the greatest cheat of all - the use of gold, where some have none and others have bottom less pockets is okay, and allowed, and not cheating - sad.

      The post was edited 3 times, last by BattleIvan ().

    • Ivan, it's clear you had no bad intentions with your proposal. But Vorlon is right it shouldn't be realized.

      Imagine two guys playing together. Player A researches infantry level 6, player B only infantry level 1. Whenever player B recruits a new infantry, he trades it over to player A, then quickly back. So player A would always have infantry at highest level without having to research it.
      Theroretically the two could do so with every unit type... I know there is a restriction on the amount of units one can trade per day, but being able to upgrade them by trading back and forth within this limitation would be bad enough.



      P.S. (to Vorlon):

      BattleIvan wrote:

      if you have a traded unit that was traded to you at lvl 1, and didn't go to lv1 2, which you were at when the trade occurred. Will it go to lvl 3 when you eventually get to lvl 3?
      In my experience, the answer to this is "No". Which I consider to be good - for same reason.
    • Hans A. Pils wrote:

      In my experience, the answer to this is "No".
      Hmm, Reading this again today you are correct. I apparently didn't properly read the question above.

      To clarify: Researching something to level 3 means that all of your level 2 units will become level 3 units.

      If some units "missed the boat" and were still at level one when level 3 research started, they are permanently stuck at level 1 until destroyed.




      Now this can be used to your advantage in certain situations. The lower level units do not merge with the higher level units. This is a "cheat" around the SBDE limitations in a way. For example you could have a group of planes that includes 5 level 2 tactical bombers and 5 level 4 tactical bombers, and each would be at 100% sbde, yet would be harder to kill as the damage done to them is spread among all the units in the group.
      War is a game that is played with a smile. If you can't smile, grin. If you can't grin keep out of the way til you can. - Winston Churchill



      VorlonFCW
      Senior Game Operator
      EN Support Team | Bytro Labs Gmbh

      >>> Click Here to submit a bug report or support ticket <<<
    • Yeah, I'd say now you have it 100% correct.

      And - by the way - even though it for sure is weird this "cheat" around the SBDE limitations exists, I don't think it's a problem. I can't imagine anyone is eager to trade low level units from others to use it. The SBDE limitation is only of big importance for planes (for land and naval units you can often live well with splitting up your stack in case you reach the limit). And the disadvantages of lower level planes are too big... they have not only less strength, but would also slow down your entire stack and reduce its range.

      So all in all I don't see a need in changing anything about how trading units works.
    • Thank you Hans.

      Hans A. Pils wrote:

      even though it for sure is weird this "cheat" around the SBDE limitations exists, I don't think it's a problem. I can't imagine anyone is eager to trade low level units from others to use it.

      I agree with you . Apparently there was an incident in the players league with this at some point, and someone made a rule about it. I am not sure that very many people would even know about this loophole if it wasn't for the Players League rule about it :D
      War is a game that is played with a smile. If you can't smile, grin. If you can't grin keep out of the way til you can. - Winston Churchill



      VorlonFCW
      Senior Game Operator
      EN Support Team | Bytro Labs Gmbh

      >>> Click Here to submit a bug report or support ticket <<<
    • Hans A. Pils wrote:

      Yeah, I'd say now you have it 100% correct.

      And - by the way - even though it for sure is weird this "cheat" around the SBDE limitations exists, I don't think it's a problem. I can't imagine anyone is eager to trade low level units from others to use it. The SBDE limitation is only of big importance for planes (for land and naval units you can often live well with splitting up your stack in case you reach the limit). And the disadvantages of lower level planes are too big... they have not only less strength, but would also slow down your entire stack and reduce its range.

      So all in all I don't see a need in changing anything about how trading units works.
      I agree. Even though you can tech stack, in most cases, I would rather have the units at the highest tech level. There are some edge cases where it might be helpful. You can often get similar benefits by diversifying units. In some cases, you might have more units survive by tech stacking. In other cases, you might lose more units by not having them at the highest tech level.
      Tech stacking can be helpful when someone can trade you units higher than what you can currently produce yourself or won't be able to produce (for instance elite units that you don't yet have the blueprints for).
    • Thank you all for your feedback.
      Plenty of comments on tech trade - thank you.
      Another question that I had raised was on lost research if you change your research part of the way through researching. If we stop part way through constructing a building we can build something else and then come back and complete the part built building from where we left off. Can we have this same capability with research please and even equipment.
      This could be tired into a high command research queue, where also the items in the queue also show the level of completion, and the queue items priority can be changed around, without loss of level of completion/research.
      Buildings, Equipment and Research could be queued in the same way for high command. Any item in any queue, could be taken out of construction/production/research and put back in the queue, whilst still retaining the level of construction/production/research that had been done to it, and the next item in the queue brought into construction/production/research. 5 items maximum can be allowed in each queue and the priority can be changed around, such that an item for example 3rd in the queue can be made 1st or 5th etc. The highest priority item (the item in slot 1-1st in line in any queue) is always done first once a construction/production/research is completed.

      The post was edited 3 times, last by BattleIvan ().

    • If you're saying the queue size is simply the limit for these paused researches, I'm alright with this. I don't think we should have 5 queue slots, research isn't too hard to keep up with anyways. I think you should be have 3 slots (3rd for High Command), but be able to pause 1 research item additional to the 1 that would be delayed. At the very least, we should be able to pause up to 1 research item half-way finished or further (which could alternatively come in as just 1 additional queue slot that either may or may not delay 1 in-progress research item to 3rd slot)
      "Appear weak when you are strong, and strong when you are weak". ~ Sun Tzu, The Art of War

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Lukenick: Clarification and fix in consistency of opinion. ().