Research Slot - Fast Track

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    • Research Slot - Fast Track

      In the 100 games that I play in, the games seem to end in the 30+ day range and it is impossible to research and upgrade everything - which I acknowledge is part of the game strategy. On day 8 people research MT, L2 LT, upgrade their planes etc. On day 16 more of the same...

      What if there was a 3rd slot available called 'FAST TRACK' and if you used it, your research speed was cut in half but at the cost of double the resources in order to speed it up?

      This would cause considerable variations to the game.

      Would you sacrifice other builds/upgrades on day 7 to have enough resources for the day 8 FAST TRACK research for MT's? Late in the game would you FAST TRACK L2 AA so you could then FAST TRACK SP AA?
      How would you manage your resources so you could take advantage of this option?
      If you used it early to make LT's, what would that cost be to your entire economy? Your rares would be depleted and probably would have a challenge recovering from it.
    • This has been suggested many times with different ways. My favourite would be to unlock research slots when you meet certain criteria for instance when you manage to capture x amount of victory points. So basically as your nation grows and you control more provinces and are producing more resources you unlock research slots to maintain a linear progression and entice players to keep growing and defend key locations such as cities that are worth more VPs then others.
    • Yea, I know. But so far it appears nothing suggested has enticed the decision makers to make a change.
      While many of the gamers would like to see some movement in this area (because it gives greater variation to game play) it seems like instead we get better ocean waves. Almost replaces my hour per day watching paint dry. Smile.
    • 5 gold would be way too cheap alone, everybody would get it;
      I propose the cost be 1000 gold for an additional slot, available on day 16. This would enable research to be sped up only when needed most.

      I disagree that you should give more research to larger nations because that just creates a larger disparity between the quicker and patient players. Just because you're quick doesn't make you more worthy of an increase in research than a patient player.
      "Know your enemy and know yourself and you can fight a hundred battles without disaster." ~ Sun Tzu, The Art of War

      "War does not determine who is right - only who is left."
    • None of you have commented on the OP's idea, swapping resources for time research-wise. That's NOT the same as having more reserach slots for having a big empire. I think the resource-for-time swap is very interesting, and will prevent the current walk down the same lanes each of us a hundred times now, offer real strategic choices, and provide more battlefield variety and rare units.
      When the enemy is driven back, we have failed. When he is cut off, encircled and dispersed, we have succeeded. - Aleksandr Suvorov.
    • My idea and suggestion has nothing to do with gold and exactly to the point Rokossovski is communicating.
      Gold users don't need another slot...they just gold up.
      Players on the other hand would be afforded an opportunity to trade resources for a faster upgrade (not an instant upgrade).
      Bytro has a good product and wouldn't be doing war games if it weren't for gold people buy. (Though having games that had a limit would be refreshing but alas a different conversation for a different day)
    • One of the problems I have with just increased resources for faster research is that some playable nations are lucky enough to swim in rare materials and can easily trade to get other needed things when necessary. This would demand changes to the current resource structure that crosses all maps.
      "Know your enemy and know yourself and you can fight a hundred battles without disaster." ~ Sun Tzu, The Art of War

      "War does not determine who is right - only who is left."
    • Maybe and maybe not...you can always buy and sell resources and the only resource that I believe would be affected is rares. We all have to suck it up when going from L1 IF to L2 IF and then to L3 IF. It's a double jump and hurts like hell when trying to upgrade as many as you can as fast as you can.

      And because the 3rd slot would really be a costly option it wouldn't be used a lot. I would sure want to save my rares and try to get the jump on day 16 or 24 with planes!
      Maybe somebody would want to get a jump on making SP AA...lot of options.
      Maybe somebody gets behind due to research completing in the middle of the night. Here is a way to pay the price and catch up.
    • K.Rokossovski wrote:

      None of you have commented on the OP's idea, swapping resources for time research-wise. That's NOT the same as having more reserach slots for having a big empire. I think the resource-for-time swap is very interesting, and will prevent the current walk down the same lanes each of us a hundred times now, offer real strategic choices, and provide more battlefield variety and rare units.

      I agree that more resources for less time is an interesting idea.


      So adding extra research slots or modifying the way that research works is a rather major undertaking. Every year there is a period of balancing changes. This means that the database of unit values is tweaked. This will be an excellent opportunity to discuss potential changes such as making research cost more resources but take less time.


      Particularly research after day 8 there is never enough time to do much more than maintain planes, a ship, and a couple ground units at the current level before the next round unlocks. It doesn't leave a lot of time for research of diverse units that would be fun to play with.

      Take tank destroyers for example. I would build tank destroyers, but I don't have time to research them and keep planes, light tanks, artillery and anti air at current levels, especially after day 16 when we start adding SP artillery and SP anti air to the mix.

      I am not saying that a player should be able to research every single unit, but time to do a few more wouldn't hurt.
      War is a game that is played with a smile. If you can't smile, grin. If you can't grin keep out of the way til you can. - Winston Churchill



      VorlonFCW
      Main Administrator
      EN Support Team | Bytro Labs Gmbh

      >>> Click Here to submit a bug report or support ticket <<<
    • I find that as soon as I get all the essentials- for me, my "essentials" are interceptors, tacs, light tanks, submarines, tank destroyers and sometimes artillery and anti-tanks- up to date, the day changes and the newest model of the essentials are researchable. Then I have to research the newest level for my essential units, leaving some units I don't use as much, like medium tanks, either unresearched or at very low levels. It'd be great to see another research slot.
      "That's impossible! The Americans only know how to make razor blades."
      "We could do with some of those razor blades, Herr Reichsmarshall."
      Hermann Goring and Erwin Rommel
    • What about making research of each consecutive level of a certain unit faster instead of slower?

      I think the battlefield diversity problem could be somewhat solved if research were to become increasingly faster instead of slower after each level.

      Since the research tree becomes wider and wider and research takes longer and longer, certain units always get upgraded and others don't get researched at all.

      By making research increasingly faster the 2 current research slots would suffice. Being able to do more research in a shorter amount of time would also mean that you have to spend more resources in a shorter amount of time. Meaning you have less time to recover of the spending on research you did. Thus it kinda makes research more expensive, but not really.

      So research being done progressively faster would pretty much solve the problem of the widening research tree. It would also make players spend more resources in a shorter amount of time on research. Easy fix right?
    • Edepedable wrote:

      What about making research of each consecutive level of a certain unit faster instead of slower?

      I think the battlefield diversity problem could be somewhat solved if research were to become increasingly faster instead of slower after each level.

      Since the research tree becomes wider and wider and research takes longer and longer, certain units always get upgraded and others don't get researched at all.

      By making research increasingly faster the 2 current research slots would suffice. Being able to do more research in a shorter amount of time would also mean that you have to spend more resources in a shorter amount of time. Meaning you have less time to recover of the spending on research you did. Thus it kinda makes research more expensive, but not really.

      So research being done progressively faster would pretty much solve the problem of the widening research tree. It would also make players spend more resources in a shorter amount of time on research. Easy fix right?
      Exactly.

      Now we just need some numbers to play with. . .
      War is a game that is played with a smile. If you can't smile, grin. If you can't grin keep out of the way til you can. - Winston Churchill



      VorlonFCW
      Main Administrator
      EN Support Team | Bytro Labs Gmbh

      >>> Click Here to submit a bug report or support ticket <<<
    • VorlonFCW wrote:

      Exactly.
      Now we just need some numbers to play with. . .
      I find putting these kind of things into numbers very hard. Perhaps the first 8 days should be kept as a reference throughout for the amount of research that can be done?

      ike53 wrote:

      In the 100 games that I play in, the games seem to end in the 30+ day range and it is impossible to research and upgrade everything - which I acknowledge is part of the game strategy.
      My experience also is that maps rarely continue past day 40. I think most maps end between day 30 and 35.

      So here is an overview of how wide the research tree gets to be.

      Day 01 - 13 researchables
      Day 02 - 15 (reaches 4 in air tech)
      Day 06 - 17 (reaches 6 in naval tech)
      Day 08 - 23 (reaches 6 in infantry tech)
      Day 16 - 25
      Day 20 - 27
      Day 24 - 29 (reaches 8 in armor tech)
      Day 40 - 33 (reaches 9 in secret tech)

      In the beginning, most research takes about 1 day. After the fast upgradables are done. I think that saying that around day 8 having done around halve the research available is realistic. Not being stopped by a lack of time but respurces not being at hand that early in the game. But then, due to the lengthening of research times and an increase in the available units having done around halve the research available is never again achieved.

      So most of us research what we already had and have built because if we dont then enemy equipment of the same kind gets an advantage. And since these units are already around, it matters if they get upgraded or not.

      I think research times should be tweaked so that we should always be able to research around halve the total equipment available. Note that secret tech reaches a total of 9, which is more than a quarter of total units available. However, players can do less secret tech research while still chosing a playable strategy that differs from that of others. That comes down to around 20% of the 50% that players can not do research on would likely be in the secret tech branch. So 30% of all the other branches would not be researched.

      Quite the difference with how things are now. Again, I do not know specifics but I estimate that now in most playthroughs around 50% of all researchables do not get researched (took a current map I am playing as a reference) with the exception of the secret tech branch where I usually only research 2 out of 9. So that means that you can keep up research on 4 extra units compared to now.

      So what the numbers would be exactly I do not know. But being able to keep up research on 4 extra units to day 20 and maybe even 6 later on would surely bring about a lot of diversity in units being used.
    • How come I'm the unlucky one whose games go on forever?? I have a game at day 145! Am I just slow or something??

      But by the time day 145 rolls around, there is no more intense fighting. It's just "clean up bots and last remaining enemies". The real fighting comes at around day 8-16 ish, where all you have are level 1 or 2 things so yes, the research tree should be shortened.
      "That's impossible! The Americans only know how to make razor blades."
      "We could do with some of those razor blades, Herr Reichsmarshall."
      Hermann Goring and Erwin Rommel
    • I have read Edepedable's suggestion.

      While I wholeheartedly support his thoughts, ideas, and suggestion I am concerned that making changes of this magnitude could have game balance consequences that are unintended and unforeseen.

      I would think a continued 'tweeking' of the research times would be the most logical and beneficial approach in order to not cause the kind of upheaval that none of us want to see.

      Continual change of the game imo is also needed to keep it new and fresh and exciting for players who want to try out different units and different strategies.
    • iDragons wrote:

      How come I'm the unlucky one whose games go on forever?? I have a game at day 145! Am I just slow or something??

      But by the time day 145 rolls around, there is no more intense fighting. It's just "clean up bots and last remaining enemies". The real fighting comes at around day 8-16 ish, where all you have are level 1 or 2 things so yes, the research tree should be shortened.
      I think the longest map I ever played lasted for around 80 days and I remember that at the time I had lost any sort of interest into playing the map. Usually I force a break through somewhere soon and take out the opponents I have to take out fast so that the map is more easily winable. In relation to the topic, that is partly also because I find playing with only a few very upgraded units that I have been using non stop for more than 80 days at the time a bit boring. In that respect the lack of diversity bores me when games run to long. I think part of the fun for me is organizing my startup of a map better than others and then strategize to beat everyone to the punch. Chosing the right research at the right time is a big part of this. So I am very, very motivated to not let maps run to long, could be a major factor in why my maps don't run all that long. Being able to get a greater variety of units out on the battlefield would be very cool. It would make wars less one dimentional and thus more fun. So for me I think anyway.
    • K.Rokossovski wrote:

      None of you have commented on the OP's idea, swapping resources for time research-wise. That's NOT the same as having more reserach slots for having a big empire. I think the resource-for-time swap is very interesting, and will prevent the current walk down the same lanes each of us a hundred times now, offer real strategic choices, and provide more battlefield variety and rare units.
      I agree that an option to invest (a lot of) resources to speed up research (a bit) would add a nice strategical choice to the game. Ideally if the costs for that option increase the longer the game lasts. But like all the other proposals to enable players to research more/faster, that's not the way to "provide more battlefield variety and rare units". Which we all want the most when thinking about improving the research system (it just sucks you have to decide for about 11 units at the beginning and then research them to the limit, while forgetting about the rest - is boring and not realistic either).
      It's good that it takes a lot of time until you have researched all you want. That shouldn't be changed.

      Instead, to give players an incentive to research a broader variety of different units, the research time and costs for low level technology should be reduced, while the research time and costs for the higher levels should be increased. Like this:
      First level of a unit: Research time and costs = 50% of what they are now.
      Last level of a unit: Research time and costs = 200% of what they are now.
      With research effort for all the levels in between gradually becoming higher.

      Every time you have a research slot open would then demand for an interesting and strategically challenging decision. To give an example: "Do I now spend 12 hours of research time and 1000 rares and goods to research at least level 1 tank destroyers, because I just happen to have spare steal - or do I spend 36 hours research time and 3000 rares and goods to upgrade my tactical bombers from level 4 to 5?" (very approximate numbers).