Criticisms of the Historically Accurate Map (25 Player)

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    • Criticisms of the Historically Accurate Map (25 Player)

      There are huge, open, noticeable power gaps in this map.

      -Manchukuo is ridiculously outnumbered, and ridiculously outgunned. Solution? Don't let them be playable. I mean, you did the same for South Africa and Siam, why is this any different?
      -The Soviet Union has a far, far weaker army than history suggests, and has a far, far smaller army than history suggests.
      -Germany is unbeatable in the first few days. One would have to pit Sweden, France, Britain, Italy, Poland, AND the Soviets, at the same time, to have a solid chance at success.
      -Mongolia is strong enough to fight all of their neighbors, with one exception. This, historically, is impossible.
      -The United States had an awful air force at the start of the war. This doesn't translate into the actual game.
      -Norway, a non-playable country, is stronger than Sweden and Finland put together. In nearly every aspect.
      -France has colonies, and yet has one of the worst economies in the game.
      -The Italian army was actually amazing; their lack of resources ultimately lead to their demise, but in terms of research, Italy should actually be much farther along than Yugoslavia, who is relatively similar in terms of advancement. No, navy doesn't count.
      -Iran (Persia) is playable. With an army of 6 measly ground units, it would literally take forever to build an efficient army, what with both Turkey AND India at your flanks.
      -On that note, Sweden is playable, with an even smaller number of ground units, with equally bad training and a slightly better economy.
      -Japan's army was actually pretty small. This, of course, doesn't count their navy, which was possibly the largest and most powerful in the world. In actual history, however, the Japanese military was... kinda crappy. The only reason the Chinese fell so quickly was because they were far, far worse off.
      -Poland is playable. I am not alone in saying that you immediately start off screwed. Sandwiched between the Soviets and the German Empire, your chance of survival is virtually non-existent. Don't even start with that diplomacy shtick: IT NEVER WORKS. WHY? BECAUSE THE GERMANS AND SOVIETS HAVE NOTHING TO GAIN FROM NOT INVADING YOU.

      Like I was saying, there's a point where history isn't fun here.

      I can safely summarize that this map is inaccurate in some points, and ridiculously overpowered in some others. Put it this way: as Poland, you immediately have no chance of survival, and Manchukuo is not much better - maybe even worse off. Germany has a huge, unfair advantage in this map, while historically accurate, makes the game nearly impossible for smaller countries. Argentina and Brazil are safe in the beginning, with lots of smaller countries to invade, but after a while, it becomes a power struggle between the two.

      I guess I speak for most everyone when I say that I'm tired of being invaded by huge countries on the first day on the grounds that I am not that great of a country. I have nothing to defend myself with, nobody wants Poland, Romania, Yugoslavia, and a fistful of others as allies, my economy usually sucks, and I can't do anything about it.

      What's the solution? How about a team game?

      It would work like this:
      Capitalism vs Fascism (plus Japan) vs Communism
      That's it.

      Manchukuo would no longer have to fear Japanese invasion, as they are a puppet state of Japan.
      China can be backed by India.
      Mexico doesn't have to worry about the Americans who usually invade them.
      Poland at least has the Swedes, France, and Britain on their side.
      Spain can finally rest assured that they won't get invaded by France. Not with Germany on their side.
      Romania is backed by Germany
      Australia is pretty much the same... nothing would really change.

      Look, it's not perfect, but I have a really hard time enjoying a game where I don't have even the slightest chance of victory. Never, not once, have I ever seen Manchukuo, Poland, Romania, or Yugoslavia (and a couple of others) win the game. I've played as every country on this map: there is a power gap, and while history permits it, I would like to divert your attention to the other historically "accurate" map: Blitzkreig.

      Almost all countries in that game have equal power.

      Sweden has a HUGE army, which isn't real.
      Yugoslavia has a HUGE army, which never existed at all, and probably never will.
      The German army is far more balanced.
      The French have a fighting chance against the Germans.
      The Spanish have a fighting chance against France and Italy.
      Italy can give Germany a run for their money.
      Need I say more?

      Why not just do the same thing on the 25 player map that you did on the 10? Do we really need this post at all? It's not a complicated problem, but has existed since the beginning of Call of War, even though it really doesn't have to.

      OK, this was kind of a rant, but I had to get it off my chest.
    • The 25 player historic map is not intended to be fair, balanced, or easy. ;)
      War is a game that is played with a smile. If you can't smile, grin. If you can't grin keep out of the way til you can. - Winston Churchill



      VorlonFCW
      Main Administrator
      EN Support Team | Bytro Labs Gmbh

      >>> Click Here to submit a bug report or support ticket <<<
    • That may be true, but the Historic isn't just unfair, unbalanced and difficult- it's IMPOSSIBLE in some features. Let me add some more criticisms to Jester's list:

      -Tibet and Xinjiang both suffocate under their own weight and starve to death. They do this in every single game.
      -France's core province production couldn't fill the bottom of a cup. In one of my Historical games, France, my ally, was living off welfare donations from me(UK). When I played France, I immediately upgraded my food. To no avail, of course.
      -The Royal Air Force and the Armee de l'Air in game are pathetic. The Luftwaffe can easily wipe both of them. I mean, they should at least pose some challenge! In real life, the Germans failed to gain air supremacy over the English Channel. That's gotta say something about "posing a challenge"!
      -Because of how many provinces there are that produce nothing and how pathetic the provinces that do produce stuff are, it's impossible to maintain a surplus of food, an army, and keep your civilians from starving if you pick a country like France or India.
      -Luxembourg has more troops than Persia. HELLO?
      -The colonial armies of the UK, France and Italy combined equal to around 15 troops. You wanna take French West Africa? There're no defenders. British Sudan? Well, there's an interceptor to defend it...
      -Whose idea was it to add CUBA to the playable nations list??
      "That's impossible! The Americans only know how to make razor blades."
      "We could do with some of those razor blades, Herr Reichsmarshall."
      Hermann Goring and Erwin Rommel
      • So... Tibet and Xinjiang needs a bit more food production or add one more food production provinces.
      • France also has the same problem
      • German airforce need to be a little bit more challenging? Then everybody will want to be German. They will say it is not fair.
      • Luxembourg should decrease in troops. It depends if it is AI then that is a problem. If it is not, then the player is just plain good.
      • Cuba is too small with only 3 province. IT IS PLAYABLE? You are kidding me. How are they suppose to defend?
      Criticism is the key to being proud but empathy is the key to being successful.
      Two roads diverged in a wood, and I took the one less traveled by, And that has made all the difference. Robert Frost
      Ask not what your countrycan do for you, ask what you can do for your country. John F Kennedy
      Time is beyond our control, and the clock keeps ticking regardless of how we lead our lives. Priority management is the answer to maximizing the time we have. John C. Maxwell
    • RYANWEN wrote:

      German airforce need to be a little bit more challenging? Then everybody will want to be German. They will say it is not fair.
      Nonono, I want Germany's air force to get nerfed. Or Britain+France's air force to be strengthened.
      "That's impossible! The Americans only know how to make razor blades."
      "We could do with some of those razor blades, Herr Reichsmarshall."
      Hermann Goring and Erwin Rommel
    • Back then, when could still be created by players, the 25 player map was specially designed for experienced players, team- or alliance games -- and it has been a great innovation, especially because it was as unbalanced as it still is now.

      But the map was not intended for a random joining or has ever really been suitable for.

      So I would not change anything (basic) on the balancing on the map, but re-change the access options again ..
      .. as exemple provide a possibility that groups / teams or alliances can create the map ..
      .. something easy as >> a certain number of participants must agree (per button, or ..) before the map becomes accessible.

      [make the map free again, but so, that not (again) each single player can and does create his own 25-map (which was one of the reasons, to remove map-creation by players)]

      Browser games are an ingenious business idea for money grabbing -
      - more or less cleverly camouflaged as a game sometimes.
      So beware of caltrops, spring-guns and booby traps.

      Texts above this signature may contain traces of irony!

    • JesterTheSheep wrote:

      Never, not once, have I ever seen Manchukuo, Poland, Romania, or Yugoslavia (and a couple of others) win the game. I've played as every country on this map: there is a power gap, and while history permits it, I would like to divert your attention to the other historically "accurate" map: Blitzkreig.
      I have won this map 3 times. First time I won as Romania, second time as Nationalist China and third time as Soviet Union. When I won as nationalist China I worked together with Manchuko. When playing as Nationalist China our main opponent in europe was Yugoslavia, he had grown to a beastly status.

      As Vorlon said, the map is not supposed to be equally divided.

      I remember playing as the Soviet Union and starting with 20 infantey and 20 militia. That meant that I had almost no manpower production for new troops. This left me vulnerable to things like enemy airplanes and collaberations. 'Owh Russia is big and dangerous lets all attack him' whilst I had nowhere near enough troops to defend the entirety of my nation. When you start out this big you can not put your massive army in 1 place and overwhelm your enemy. You have to do a lot of guarding and keeping a strong military presence in a lot of places to ward of possible attackers. Its not as easy as it seems.

      For every country on the historical map it is true that skill, diplomacy AND luck are bigger factors than is the case on other maps. That is the nature of the map.
    • Ok so here is a counter rant:
      1. First point is clear, and i agree with it.
      2. The USSR starts with the largest army in the game. If it had 150+ units from the beginning, that would be too OP.
      3. LMAO.
      4. Also LMAO. I have invaded Mongolia with USSR using 4 units from Siberia.
      5. Yes, the US had a bad Air Force, but i never saw someone win with the US by using his AirForce as his primary unit
      6. No, in the 25, Swedish players always have a top notch starting position and the only problem are the 5 units in Oslo. I took out Norway on day 5, if you dont believe me i have a screenshot
      7. Yes, i agree
      8. Research? Yeah right. That is why those pathetic men barely invaded Ethiopia who used bows as their weapons.
      9. Again, if Persia was stronger, playing with the USSR would be a nightmare.
      10. I dont agree with the economy part.
      11. Never played Japan-Never fought Japan.
      12. Well, to be honest, the Polish army is fairly ok to start off. What should Bytro Engineers do, crop the country out and put it somewhere else. You spoke about historical accuracy, there you go. Poland was out in less than a year, plus, you wont have a good time invading Poland by only USSR or only Germany. Been there, done that.
      13. I dont Agree. Yugoslavia and Romania win A LOT of times actually on the 25
      14. While Sweden and Yugoslavia shouldnt stand a chance against ie. Germany, they were strong forces for their smaller neighbors.


      Your solution does exist, its called Team games. Vorlon said it the best, this isnt meant to be a easy map, i agree that some economical stability should be implemented (French food problem), but all in all, 100% in my top 3 favorite maps.
    • I mean, strange things have happened. this is a list of things I have seen take place in my games:f
      • I have seen Poland beat Germany
      • As France, I was able to successfully invade Germany
      • Poland has also defeated USSR
      • under that heading, I have seen both Xingiang and Mongolia defeat USSR as well
      • I've seen Nationalist China defeat Japan along with Manchukuo
      • Persia has won the game, invading Africa and even the USSR
      and to clarify some of the Historical events:
      • USA had an extremely weak army at the beginning of WW2, but a very strong navy
      • Germany had the largest Army (naturally) but actually had way more starting tanks in history
      • also, Germany had more tactical bombers in history, not just interceptors
      • Poland's Army is pretty accurate. In fact, the Polish Army was able to destroy 1/3 of the German Tanks involved with their Anti-Tank guns.
      • Russia had more tanks in WW2. at the start they had 26K tanks but most were (lv. 1) ww1 class.
      • the game has it right with USSR troops. 75% of them were along the German border
      • can you imagine France trying to feed all those people in there colonies? yeah, food shortages happen.
      • Japan is extremely accurate. incredible navy, weak Army (actually it was just a tad bit larger), and lack of oil. love it all the way
      • Britain should have a larger air force with more interceptors. but its navy is accurate.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by attacker101 ().

    • hakijaa wrote:

      attacker101 wrote:


      • USA had an extremely weak army and navy at the beginning of WW2, but a very strong navy.

      :thumbsup: :thumbsup: this doesn't make sense. I know its a typo and a mistake, but i had to do it
      It can make sense, USA in my map has a aircraft carrier and a fleet of 5-10 destroyers and 3-4 subs and 5-8 cruisers. Also, i cannot upload pictures.
      Criticism is the key to being proud but empathy is the key to being successful.
      Two roads diverged in a wood, and I took the one less traveled by, And that has made all the difference. Robert Frost
      Ask not what your countrycan do for you, ask what you can do for your country. John F Kennedy
      Time is beyond our control, and the clock keeps ticking regardless of how we lead our lives. Priority management is the answer to maximizing the time we have. John C. Maxwell
    • attacker101 wrote:

      I mean, strange things have happened. this is a list of things I have seen take place in my games:f
      • I have seen Poland beat Germany
      • As France, I was able to successfully invade Germany
      • Poland has also defeated USSR
      • under that heading, I have seen both Xingiang and Mongolia defeat USSR as well
      • I've seen Nationalist China defeat Japan along with Manchukuo
      • Persia has won the game, invading Africa and even the USSR
      and to clarify some of the Historical events:
      • USA had an extremely weak army and navy at the beginning of WW2, but a very strong navy
      • Germany had the largest Army (naturally) but actually had way more starting tanks in history
      • also, Germany had more tactical bombers in history, not just interceptors
      • Poland's Army is pretty accurate. In fact, the Polish Army was able to destroy 1/3 of the German Tanks involved with their Anti-Tank guns.
      • Russia had more tanks in WW2. at the start they had 26K tanks but most were (lv. 1) ww1 class.
      • the game has it right with USSR troops. 75% of them were along the German border
      • can you imagine France trying to feed all those people in there colonies? yeah, food shortages happen.
      • Japan is extremely accurate. incredible navy, weak Army (actually it was just a tad bit larger), and lack of oil. love it all the way
      • Britain should have a larger air force with more interceptors. but its navy is accurate.

      1. Poland can beat Germany, there is no definite who will win or loose because this game is not history.
      2. Is Germany even active?
      3. Poland defeating U.S.S.R. is highly unusual because they have lots of land and troops. Just asking, is it Russia federation or what.
      4. Who wins is not historical
      5. If Persia wins, that means he is simply good in the game.
      6. It is possible that USA has a weak navy but it depends on the game. What map is it?
      7. How do you know about everyones army?
      8. I partially agree with making it more historically accurate but otherwise...
      9. Ukraine and all small countries can have nuclear weapon as long as the player managed it, it should be just the beginning that is inaccurate.
      Criticism is the key to being proud but empathy is the key to being successful.
      Two roads diverged in a wood, and I took the one less traveled by, And that has made all the difference. Robert Frost
      Ask not what your countrycan do for you, ask what you can do for your country. John F Kennedy
      Time is beyond our control, and the clock keeps ticking regardless of how we lead our lives. Priority management is the answer to maximizing the time we have. John C. Maxwell
    • RYANWEN wrote:

      attacker101 wrote:

      I mean, strange things have happened. this is a list of things I have seen take place in my games:f
      • I have seen Poland beat Germany
      • As France, I was able to successfully invade Germany
      • Poland has also defeated USSR
      • under that heading, I have seen both Xingiang and Mongolia defeat USSR as well
      • I've seen Nationalist China defeat Japan along with Manchukuo
      • Persia has won the game, invading Africa and even the USSR
      and to clarify some of the Historical events:
      • USA had an extremely weak army and navy at the beginning of WW2, but a very strong navy
      • Germany had the largest Army (naturally) but actually had way more starting tanks in history
      • also, Germany had more tactical bombers in history, not just interceptors
      • Poland's Army is pretty accurate. In fact, the Polish Army was able to destroy 1/3 of the German Tanks involved with their Anti-Tank guns.
      • Russia had more tanks in WW2. at the start they had 26K tanks but most were (lv. 1) ww1 class.
      • the game has it right with USSR troops. 75% of them were along the German border
      • can you imagine France trying to feed all those people in there colonies? yeah, food shortages happen.
      • Japan is extremely accurate. incredible navy, weak Army (actually it was just a tad bit larger), and lack of oil. love it all the way
      • Britain should have a larger air force with more interceptors. but its navy is accurate.

      1. Poland can beat Germany, there is no definite who will win or loose because this game is not history.
      2. Is Germany even active?
      3. Poland defeating U.S.S.R. is highly unusual because they have lots of land and troops. Just asking, is it Russia federation or what.
      4. Who wins is not historical
      5. If Persia wins, that means he is simply good in the game.
      6. It is possible that USA has a weak navy but it depends on the game. What map is it?
      7. How do you know about everyones army?
      8. I partially agree with making it more historically accurate but otherwise...
      9. Ukraine and all small countries can have nuclear weapon as long as the player managed it, it should be just the beginning that is inaccurate.

      I was thinking the same thing. I doubt a lot of these will work with both players active.
    • Um, before I decided to give up on my old account, the last 25p I played was as Romania, and I actually ended up at no.1 place when I chose to quit my old account and focus on this one. Romania is a good country as long as you have a good relationship with the USSR. I would say if Poland allied with just one of the two (Germany or USSR) Poland can stand a chance, but Yugoslavia winning is near impossible. Most people choose to be either Germany or USSR because they have the largest and most powerful armies.
      "As long as there are sovereign nations possessing great power, war is inevitable." Albert Einstein

      "Giving up is not an option in war, for it proves one's incapability and incompetence as a leader." - Me (Little Racoon)
    • RYANWEN wrote:

      7. How do you know about everyones army?
      I have played for about 2 years now. in this time I have played as the following countries:
      Germany
      USSR
      Poland
      France
      Japan
      USA
      Canada
      Mexico
      Spain
      British India
      Nationalist China and
      Britain
      and I have allied with other countries as well so...yeah. I know a lot of the countries armies.
    • attacker101 wrote:

      RYANWEN wrote:

      7. How do you know about everyones army?
      I have played for about 2 years now. in this time I have played as the following countries:Germany
      USSR
      Poland
      France
      Japan
      USA
      Canada
      Mexico
      Spain
      British India
      Nationalist China and
      Britain
      and I have allied with other countries as well so...yeah. I know a lot of the countries armies.
      To know everyone's army, pick a random small country and Share Map with everyone. I have done it with Persia, everyone except Mexico, because the dude didn't understand basic English...