Paratroopers, Not worth it.

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    • Paratroopers, Not worth it.

      I have tried a Beta game. I upgraded the Barracks, and decided Commando units to make a mountain defence. Soviet player tried a paratrooper on me, twice occurred and I destroyed them. The Commando unit is more worth it to use, having beggary of the time to the costly Airfield lvl. 3. I have smashed apart every paratrooper usage against me. Beware trying for a paratrooper based victory.

      The paratrooper is a great idea, no doubt, i am very happy to see them implemented, but in this strategy gaming, the time it takes to get these going is just not worth it.....i have noticed that there are many words for this development, but in the end, as a COW gamer, i have to be a negativist to just how inaccurately they have been implemented....

      More say... The Gran Sasso raid pulled off by Otto Skorzeny, former SS commander, CIA operative, considered the most dangerous man in Europe. He led a paratrooper op. to rescue Mussolini at the Apennine mountains. The troops used for this were specialized, yes indeed historically, but not that the game requires barracks lvl. 3 for this condition.

      Paratroopers were usually the fitter troop standard, not always necessarily the most advanced. The battle of Crete saw some serious paratrooper role(s) take place between Britain and Germany, not all these troops were specialist, alot were just simply thrown from an aircraft, told to pull some string and get to work on ground asap. "get em out there"

      The need for the upgrades is non historical and that here in COW the paratrooper unit is over rated. Again say, most of the US pilots and paratroopers were more or less harnessed by industrial superiority rather than specialist training.

      Overall, paratroopers in COW are not worth it... I am disappointed with how the decision to introduce this new unit is implemented.
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      The post was edited 2 times, last by bigboss_ironfist ().

    • It is highly debatable the inclusion of a unit that bypasses the linear movement of ground units. On top of that, the only way for this unit to be realistic would be to have it been extremely weak against armor (same as Militia), very strong in defense against infantry, unable to occupy directly a province (in fact, they never dropped directly in their target), automatically killed by any AA or plane in the area etc. On the flip side, they should deny the home movement advantage to the enemy units but should be unable to keep the province themselves. And of course they should be able to be reused if freed in time by the main land forces - otherwise they should simply die.

      In other words, paras should be a special use unit and not a normal unit.
    • bigboss_ironfist wrote:

      The Gran Sasso raid pulled off by Otto Skorzeny, former SS commander, CIA operative, considered the most dangerous man in Europe. He led a paratrooper op. to rescue Mussolini at the Apennine mountains.
      Yes thats exactly what this was a raid not a major battalion strength push from the skies.

      Operation Market garden was a complete disaster, same for Operation Mercury not the great victory you make it out to be, the Germans took trumendous losses specially considering who they were fighting Grandpas and Grandmoms or 12 year old kids with pitchforks and shotguns. Everyone fit and of fighting age was at the Albanian front.

      Same again for the paradrops on D day they were scattered all over the coast and render combat innefective due to dispersion.

      Paratroops are not and should not be an OP super unit they are a specialized unit for unique situations just like in real life.
    • atreas1 wrote:

      In other words, paras should be a special use unit and not a normal unit.
      Couldn't have said it better myself.

      bigboss_ironfist wrote:

      Overall, paratroopers in COW are over rated and not worth it... I am disappointed with how the decision to introduce this new unit is implemented.
      Yes i'm a bit disapointed too, barracks level 2 would have been better and maybe not only to produce in your capital but maybe in your cores. This way you can produce a descent amount of them to put them to use. Or would that make paratroopers too powerfull.

      Kanaris wrote:

      Paratroops are not and should not be an OP super unit they are a specialized unit for unique situations just like in real life.
      Totally agree but i find it a pitty that paratroopers are now competing with commando's.
    • Instead of the theories, it is time to recognize that paratroopers are in fact a threat to the game itself, because they are in a way bypassing the only real constraint for an easy "golden win" - the movement time. Consider the following scenario.

      I manage to drop successfully a paratrooper in ANY province behind the enemy line. Then it is immediately (and quite cheaply, in fact) game over: rush an airbase and use that for stepping subsequent paratroopers further and further inside (I just need to have a few of them ready and on stand-by). In any but the bigger maps, it is game over while the player is still asleep (which violates the whole idea of slow movement times). Even worse, it is not even good for Bytro, as the rush is much cheaper than without paratroopers.

      We can all wait till this (obvious exploit) starts happening, or we can start thinking of some potential remedy, before we see this scenario happening again and again. I am sure that neither the players nor Bytro will be happy with that.
    • atreas1 wrote:

      Instead of the theories, it is time to recognize that paratroopers are in fact a threat to the game itself, because they are in a way bypassing the only real constraint for an easy "golden win" - the movement time. Consider the following scenario.

      I manage to drop successfully a paratrooper in ANY province behind the enemy line. Then it is immediately (and quite cheaply, in fact) game over: rush an airbase and use that for stepping subsequent paratroopers further and further inside (I just need to have a few of them ready and on stand-by). In any but the bigger maps, it is game over while the player is still asleep (which violates the whole idea of slow movement times). Even worse, it is not even good for Bytro, as the rush is much cheaper than without paratroopers.

      We can all wait till this (obvious exploit) starts happening, or we can start thinking of some potential remedy, before we see this scenario happening again and again. I am sure that neither the players nor Bytro will be happy with that.
      I agree, but can you gold paratrooper drop time?
    • atreas1 wrote:

      Instead of the theories, it is time to recognize that paratroopers are in fact a threat to the game itself, because they are in a way bypassing the only real constraint for an easy "golden win" - the movement time. Consider the following scenario.

      I concur, paratroopers should be absolved from COW, unless they are re evaluated and made to compensate an enemy threat not only offensively but be made a defensive tactic, best suited at a middle game. This means about day 20 - 25 they should be able to be put to work. This will limit the 'golden win' scenario.


      atreas1 wrote:


      We can all wait till this (obvious exploit) starts happening, or we can start thinking of some potential remedy, before we see this scenario happening again and again. I am sure that neither the players nor Bytro will be happy with that.

      It will start happening, players are staring to come familiar with para tactics and these will be be destroyed by building commando units...I see the paratrooper in its decision to implement as virtually useless currently.
    • atreas1 wrote:

      Instead of the theories, it is time to recognize that paratroopers are in fact a threat to the game itself, because they are in a way bypassing the only real constraint for an easy "golden win" - the movement time. Consider the following scenario.

      I manage to drop successfully a paratrooper in ANY province behind the enemy line. Then it is immediately (and quite cheaply, in fact) game over: rush an airbase and use that for stepping subsequent paratroopers further and further inside (I just need to have a few of them ready and on stand-by). In any but the bigger maps, it is game over while the player is still asleep (which violates the whole idea of slow movement times). Even worse, it is not even good for Bytro, as the rush is much cheaper than without paratroopers.

      We can all wait till this (obvious exploit) starts happening, or we can start thinking of some potential remedy, before we see this scenario happening again and again. I am sure that neither the players nor Bytro will be happy with that.
      Paratroopers can't move the first 10 hours after the drop, they can be taken out by arty or tacs in that time.
    • My estimation is that, having in mind the expected size of a country at Day 10, it needs just to rush 15 paras and 8 airbases to deliver such a blow the rest will be trivial (a guaranteed win after that). The cost for rushing is so small, compared to all other rushes, that I doubt it is for the benefit of Bytro and of the game.

      There can be remedies for that (for example, not to allow rushing airbases lvl 1 would be sufficient). Then in defense you need to really have a guard in your airbases, which is both reasonable and normal. Perhaps (?) the test did only check the regular use, where the 10 hours delay would indeed be sufficient.
    • A simple fix to the para rush tactic is to prevent them from capturing a province until after the existing wait time for moving.

      One thing I would like to see is to allow them to be droppable on friendly territory - I would use them as a rapid reaction force then.

      As to their historical utility they were generally elite and highly effective units - when not dropped. When dropped they routinely suffered heavy casualties but their mere presence would cause confusion and disruption in enemy formations. But I agree they were most effective in small deployments more like raids than assaults.
    • Elite Canuck wrote:



      As to their historical utility they were generally elite and highly effective units - when not dropped. When dropped they routinely suffered heavy casualties but their mere presence would cause confusion and disruption in enemy formations. But I agree they were most effective in small deployments more like raids than assaults.

      Casualties is certainly a consideration that COW rules needs to address with regards to the paratrooper unit. There needs to be less emphasis on building requirements and further strategy conditions on terrain impacts, also that snow should be introduced, with that said the alpine unit too.


      Elite Canuck wrote:

      I haven't encountered anyone using the rush tactic some are worried about, if they do it does need to be addressed and this would be one way.

      On rush tactic...it does need to be addressed, the added expense of barracks lvl. 3 and airfield has not thwarted rush spenders and I have only beaten such rush tactics anyways...eventually paratroopers will need modifying and I think that province capture timing needs to be addressed.
    • Don't allow paras to drop into cities. Rush tactic avoided.

      WHEN DROPPED, paras had 3 major uses:

      1. Paras were used as speed bumps to delay the enemy from reaching where the fighting was (D-Day). They were expendable. Ground units cannot get passed them without destroying them. Artillery and Tac Air used to destroy them cannot be used against the main troops. Although, paras were only used with air superiority. So, Tac Air shouldn't be a problem.

      2. Paras were used to secure an objective and hold it until the main force arrived (Operation Market Garden). Here, they succeeded with 3 of the 4 drops.

      3. Paras were used to capture air bases in isolated areas in low unit conflicts (Crete). It took 16-24 hours for the paras to consolidate and take the air bases so the regular troops could be flown in and take the island.

      All 3 cases can be modeled by simply not allowing Paras to drop in cities, assuming you have air superiority like they always had.

      1. Speed bump - Drop between the fighting and enemy reinforcements.

      2. Grab Objective - Drop on the other side of the objective to delay reinforcements until your troops take the objective.

      3. Grab Air Bases in isolated areas - Drop next to the city, wait the 10 hours (normal time for paras to consolidate and take care of small garrisons), then build Air Base.

      And, remember, the Paras always had air superiority.

      Paras never dropped into major cities, like the ones on the map.
    • I agree...paratroopers should be at a lesser advantage when making advancement on cities.....SPLAT!

      I have already put through how units should be implemented early 2019....These format types are viable and will work on any COW map. There is no need for a big debacle of paratrooper useless unit here...it is just another condition of gamepley.

      PLEASE READ...


      Here is a list, of what I believe should be a introduced to alternative COW rounds.
      Please fell free to leave any feedback.



      MARINE:
      Requirements; Barracks lvl. II,
      Naval Yards lvl. I
      Infantry lvl. III
      Strength: 4 on any terrain except mountains (-25%)
      Increased speed on coastal cities and water

      PARATROOPER;
      Requirements; Barracks lvl. II
      Airbase lvl. I
      Infantry lvl. III
      Can only land on visible terrain,
      Load time, 30 - 60 minutes,
      On enemy ground landing strength; -25% mountains, -50% City, -25% hills/forest/jungles, -10% grassland
      Cannot land on occupied ground

      GUARD;
      Requirements; Infantry lvl. I & militia lvl. I
      Strength at 2.0 capacity
      Can only be stationed in cities
      Decreased morale loss to the city stationed
      % increase to counter spies/espionage
      Only defends

      RANGER UNIT:
      Requirements; Requires motorized infantry lvl. II
      % strength increase in forests, jungles, hills
      % increase in health healing

      STEALTH BOMBER; (1945 - 1954 era)
      Requirements; tactical bomber lvl. VI
      Ignores radar


      RADAR BASE
      Requirements; Research
      lvl. I Airbase
      Decreases fog of war where built



      CAPITAL WORKS;
      Attributes; lvl. I increase wealth 10%
      lvl. II increase wealth 10%
      lvl. III increase wealth 10%
      Can only be built in capital city


      HOSPITAL;
      Attributes; Increased morale & healing
      Population growth





      GROUP I; ALLIED TYPE

      Infantry; Increased HP, Marine unit
      Increased HP motorized infantry
      Decreased cost artillery
      Faster production time, fighter wing

      Armour; Increased HP, heavy tank
      Increase HP, mobile artillery

      Naval; Increased HP, Destroyer
      Increased HP, Carrier

      Air; Increased HP, strategic bomber

      Special; Faster research time strategic bomber & radar.



      GROUP II; AXIS TYPE

      Infantry; Increased HP, anti air
      Faster production time for infantry
      Increased HP, paratrooper

      Armour; Increased HP, light tank
      Increased HP, armoured car

      Naval; Increased HP, submarine
      Increase HP, cruiser

      Air; Increase HP, tac bombers
      Increase HP, rocket fighter

      Special; Increase HP, rail gun
      Decrease cost, missile



      GROUP III; SOVIET TYPE

      Infantry; Faster time militia production
      Increase HP, artillery
      Decrease cost commando

      Armour; Increase HP, medium tank
      Increase HP. mobile anti air

      Naval; Increase HP, Nuclear submarine

      Air; Reduced research time, fighter wing

      Special; Increased capacity for espionage (upgrade spies)
      Reduced cost, atomic research & nuclear power research




      GROUP IV; EASTERN TYPE

      Infantry; Increased HP, infantry
      Increased HP, anti armour
      Increase HP, guard

      Armour; Increase HP, light tank
      Increase HP, tank destroyer

      Naval; Faster production time, submarine
      Increase HP, Battleship

      Air; Decreased cost, fighter wing
      Increase HP, Naval bomber
      Faster research time, jet fighter


      I hope that these ideas help to make resonate alternative formats for COW.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by bigboss_ironfist ().