Announcement Research Balancing Update

  • attacker101 wrote:

    Nooberium wrote:

    The switch from Goods to Food alone forced a complete reevaluation of economic and research priorities.
    well you've got to feed your scientists :P .
    Beside the joke, I was wondering if this change puts in HUGE disadvantage the countries with only two food cores. It was already tough to keep track of food after expansion with such countries - now it will become a hell.

    Perhaps (???) some change in the maps is in order?
  • Before the update, goods, steel, food and oil all had the same value (of course there were round where one or the other was more scarce - I'm talking about the average of all maps).
    Now after the change from goods to food as the second resource required for researching, food is a bit more valuable than oil and steel is much more valuable than goods.
    This gives countries with many steel and food provinces an advantage over countries with many goods and food provinces. Also it impaired the balance between the units.

    To resolve this, the goods upkeep for provinces should be increased by 50% and the food upkeep for provinces should be reduced by 25%. So for example a province that now needs 20 food and 10 goods would need 15 food and 15 goods afterwards.

    If that's an easy adaption, please do at least this before the release.
  • I was thinking of another solution, but the idea is similar:

    To increase the base food production of all provinces by a certain percent (up to 20%). Or, at least, to do that for the countries with only two food cores.

    My idea was based on the fact that (I guess) the base production is a constant, easy to change, while other solutions might require tampering with game mechanisms.
  • Hans A. Pils wrote:

    This gives countries with many steel and food provinces an advantage over countries with many goods and food provinces. Also it impaired the balance between the units.
    So? Its just the reverse of what used to be the case? A country like Yugoslavia on the 22p map with only 3 goods producing provinces used to be in trouble (most other countries have 5, or at least 4). Now it no longer is. It just changes some advantages and disadvantages around it seems to me.

    Have you found playing with 2 food province countries to be more troublesome than playing with countries that used to have little goods production?
    I mean food does not have a lot of other uses anyway. You need to always be in the + production wise but thats a production issue. Not a total capacity issue, unless you are in the negative production wise, which to me hardly ever happens. And certainly not for long duration of times.

    The only thing I see as a possibly problematic change to this is that you can no longer sell all your food at the start of a map. There is no resource that you can just sell without worrying about it. Perhaps goods but who will buy them if everyonen has enough goods? Does the AI now need to be put to a 'goods buying frenzy' in the way it used to buy food? Or will this economical jump starter disapear?
  • First of all, Yugoslavia in the 22 map has 3 while many other countries have 4 and none has 5, simply because it doesn't have a double goods. But this is not the real point. The real point is that

    ALL other resources are improved by expansion. Food is the exception - it generally worsens when you expand

    The situation is much worse in certain maps than in others, due to distances and especially due to the number of cities (these are the ones who consume more food).

    No, it is not the same at all. 2-food countries are put in a severe disadvantage, and some of them (like Germany in the 22 map, with only a double food and a single oil) become almost suicidal choices.
  • All I know is that already playing a country with only 2 food producing core provinces you are in trouble come mid game even if you do all you can to midigate it such infra + IC its still not enough and you are always flirting with going below 0 and into negative production.

    So now the situation will be twice as bad for these countires. Why is that? Well because getting more high end goods producing non core privinces is much easier than getting any other type. Most nations start with ICs on at a minimum 3 of their goods producing provinces and many start with 4 at least. Meaning you are way more likely to conquer well develloped goods provinces then of any other kind. Also there are a hell of alot more double goods provinces then any othet kind in most maps.

    So switching research cost from goods to grain means nations that start with only 2 core grain provinces are competively hard to play or potentially non viable in games that last longer than average.
  • Hans A. Pils wrote:

    * The update brings a new dimension to gold usage. Before, you could hardly buy a big research advantage with gold. Now you can buy everything you can imagine... and that already at day 20. Gold spenders will smother you with level 3 bombers on day 8, with level 3 rockets on day 12 and with nuclear rockets on day 20, when your naturally grown economy is still so small there is no chance you can defend against somebody who spends just about 50.000 gold on better technology... no matter how good your strategy is. And they will laugh in your face while doing so. So far, players without gold only have to fight against higher quantity of enemy units. Now they'll have to fight against units from another generation of weapon technology.

    Players who so far don't buy gold, still won't. And players who buy gold, won't buy more but will need less to checkmate a no-gold-player.
    If you thought about this well and it's really what you want, you can leave the update as it is.
    I think this might be a good thing. Think about it like this: 1 gold spenders spend more gold on research instead of on troops. If you get killed by far superior gold bought technology in week 3, that is not as bad as being defeated by gold bought units in week 6 if you ask me. Other players on the map that are farther away have the time to research accordingly to counter the gold bought technological threat. Just give them your resources before you die.
    - Less frustration because of made time investments.
    - More gold spent on research instead of units.
    - More chances to defeat gold users (if players are willing to help each other a little).
    - More fun for everyone.

    Does not sound all that bad to me honestly.

    I do not recognize that we have to fight ''only'' superior numbers of troops if we encounter a heavy golder at the moment. Its the same as always, you make medium tanks, boom there are the max level tank destroyers. You got your planes upgraded first? Well so does your enemy, and also his anti air, and artillery that now shoots further than yours. Same problems for non golders still apply. But, they way I see it, at least now we waste less time on figuring out we can not win a fight. Since you yourself also have a lot more research options, if your enemy that uses gold researches and invest into the ''wrong'' unit, a lot of gold needs to be spent on research to make this right again. I think it might be a good thing. More gold will be spent on research.