Research Balancing Update

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  • attacker101 wrote:

    Nooberium wrote:

    The switch from Goods to Food alone forced a complete reevaluation of economic and research priorities.
    well you've got to feed your scientists :P .
    Beside the joke, I was wondering if this change puts in HUGE disadvantage the countries with only two food cores. It was already tough to keep track of food after expansion with such countries - now it will become a hell.

    Perhaps (???) some change in the maps is in order?

  • Before the update, goods, steel, food and oil all had the same value (of course there were round where one or the other was more scarce - I'm talking about the average of all maps).
    Now after the change from goods to food as the second resource required for researching, food is a bit more valuable than oil and steel is much more valuable than goods.
    This gives countries with many steel and food provinces an advantage over countries with many goods and food provinces. Also it impaired the balance between the units.

    To resolve this, the goods upkeep for provinces should be increased by 50% and the food upkeep for provinces should be reduced by 25%. So for example a province that now needs 20 food and 10 goods would need 15 food and 15 goods afterwards.

    If that's an easy adaption, please do at least this before the release.

  • I was thinking of another solution, but the idea is similar:

    To increase the base food production of all provinces by a certain percent (up to 20%). Or, at least, to do that for the countries with only two food cores.

    My idea was based on the fact that (I guess) the base production is a constant, easy to change, while other solutions might require tampering with game mechanisms.

  • Hans A. Pils wrote:

    This gives countries with many steel and food provinces an advantage over countries with many goods and food provinces. Also it impaired the balance between the units.
    So? Its just the reverse of what used to be the case? A country like Yugoslavia on the 22p map with only 3 goods producing provinces used to be in trouble (most other countries have 5, or at least 4). Now it no longer is. It just changes some advantages and disadvantages around it seems to me.

    Have you found playing with 2 food province countries to be more troublesome than playing with countries that used to have little goods production?
    I mean food does not have a lot of other uses anyway. You need to always be in the + production wise but thats a production issue. Not a total capacity issue, unless you are in the negative production wise, which to me hardly ever happens. And certainly not for long duration of times.

    The only thing I see as a possibly problematic change to this is that you can no longer sell all your food at the start of a map. There is no resource that you can just sell without worrying about it. Perhaps goods but who will buy them if everyonen has enough goods? Does the AI now need to be put to a 'goods buying frenzy' in the way it used to buy food? Or will this economical jump starter disapear?

  • First of all, Yugoslavia in the 22 map has 3 while many other countries have 4 and none has 5, simply because it doesn't have a double goods. But this is not the real point. The real point is that

    ALL other resources are improved by expansion. Food is the exception - it generally worsens when you expand

    The situation is much worse in certain maps than in others, due to distances and especially due to the number of cities (these are the ones who consume more food).

    No, it is not the same at all. 2-food countries are put in a severe disadvantage, and some of them (like Germany in the 22 map, with only a double food and a single oil) become almost suicidal choices.

  • All I know is that already playing a country with only 2 food producing core provinces you are in trouble come mid game even if you do all you can to midigate it such infra + IC its still not enough and you are always flirting with going below 0 and into negative production.

    So now the situation will be twice as bad for these countires. Why is that? Well because getting more high end goods producing non core privinces is much easier than getting any other type. Most nations start with ICs on at a minimum 3 of their goods producing provinces and many start with 4 at least. Meaning you are way more likely to conquer well develloped goods provinces then of any other kind. Also there are a hell of alot more double goods provinces then any othet kind in most maps.

    So switching research cost from goods to grain means nations that start with only 2 core grain provinces are competively hard to play or potentially non viable in games that last longer than average.

  • Hans A. Pils wrote:

    * The update brings a new dimension to gold usage. Before, you could hardly buy a big research advantage with gold. Now you can buy everything you can imagine... and that already at day 20. Gold spenders will smother you with level 3 bombers on day 8, with level 3 rockets on day 12 and with nuclear rockets on day 20, when your naturally grown economy is still so small there is no chance you can defend against somebody who spends just about 50.000 gold on better technology... no matter how good your strategy is. And they will laugh in your face while doing so. So far, players without gold only have to fight against higher quantity of enemy units. Now they'll have to fight against units from another generation of weapon technology.

    Players who so far don't buy gold, still won't. And players who buy gold, won't buy more but will need less to checkmate a no-gold-player.
    If you thought about this well and it's really what you want, you can leave the update as it is.
    I think this might be a good thing. Think about it like this: 1 gold spenders spend more gold on research instead of on troops. If you get killed by far superior gold bought technology in week 3, that is not as bad as being defeated by gold bought units in week 6 if you ask me. Other players on the map that are farther away have the time to research accordingly to counter the gold bought technological threat. Just give them your resources before you die.
    - Less frustration because of made time investments.
    - More gold spent on research instead of units.
    - More chances to defeat gold users (if players are willing to help each other a little).
    - More fun for everyone.

    Does not sound all that bad to me honestly.

    I do not recognize that we have to fight ''only'' superior numbers of troops if we encounter a heavy golder at the moment. Its the same as always, you make medium tanks, boom there are the max level tank destroyers. You got your planes upgraded first? Well so does your enemy, and also his anti air, and artillery that now shoots further than yours. Same problems for non golders still apply. But, they way I see it, at least now we waste less time on figuring out we can not win a fight. Since you yourself also have a lot more research options, if your enemy that uses gold researches and invest into the ''wrong'' unit, a lot of gold needs to be spent on research to make this right again. I think it might be a good thing. More gold will be spent on research.

  • Additional Balancing changes - changelog

    Based on all your feedback since our last Research balancing revision on beta we are introducing a bunch of additional changes on beta, to adress the final concerns.
    -------------------------------------------
    • Increased Nuclear Rocket costs again: Rare Material from 12500 (pre-patch: 10000) to 15000 and Money from 30000 to 35000.
    • Increased research time of Nuclear Rocket from 50h to 65h.
    • Increased research cost of Nuclear Rocket: Food from 7500 to 8000, Rare materials from 12500 to 15000, Money from 25000 to 30000.


    Reason: This change once more adresses the concern that the early availability of nuclear rockets is preventing other strategies from flourishing. Developing nuclear weapons is now a very costly endeavour, as it should be, since this weapon is a game changer.


    • Normalized province resource consumption: Lowered Food consumption and raised Goods consumption
    Reason: This change makes it easier to expand while still maintaining research. It adresses the increased need of Food and the decreased need of Goods.

    • Increased damage scaling per level of Anti Air. Old air damage levels: 5/6/7/8/10/12. New air damage levels: 5/6.5/8/9.5/11.5/14.
    • Increased damage scaling per level of Motorized Anti Air. Old air damage levels: 6/7.5/9/11/13. New air damage levels: 6.5/8/9.5/12/14.5.
    Reason: This change adresses the concern that earlier availability of high Bomber levels shifts strategies too much towards air superiority. Previously the damage of Anti Air could not keep up with the damage of Tactical Bombers on later levels. Now Anti Air also has more of a fighting chance on later levels.

    • Increased Research speed-up cost for 12h from 1700 to 2500 gold.


    Reason: This change adresses the concern that with more researches being available it would be too easy to gain a large advantage using gold. Since research times were lowered significantly, it is only fair that the price per skipped research hour rises accordingly to compensate.


    • Decreased damage of Mechanized Infantry against unarmored units. Old attacking values: 7.5/8/8.5/8.75/9/9.5. New attacking values: 6/7/8/8.5/9/9.5. Defending values are 50% higher for both cases.
    • Decreased damage of Mechanized Infantry against armored units. Old attacking values: 3.5/3.75/4/4.25/4.5/4.75. New attacking: 2/2.5/3/3.5/4/4.5. Defending values are 50% higher for both cases.


    Reason: Mechanized Infantry now becomes available earlier, compared to other unit types. Therefore the damage of early levels of Mechanized Infantry needed to be lowered to be in balance with other units unlocking on the same days of the game.

    • Moved rocket research lvl 4 from day 16 to day 18
    • Increased rocket research lvl 4 costs: Rare Material from 6600 to 7500 and Money from 11250 to 13000


    Reason: This change adresses the concern that the early availability of higher rocket levels shifts the metagame too much in the direction of rocket warfare.

    • Changed Commando research price: Rare materials from 1700 to 2000


    Reason: The Commando is a powerful unit. This change brings its research cost more in line with other strong units unlocked in that time frame.


    • Increased Paratrooper range levels: Old range levels: 250/275/300/325. New range levels: 275/300/350/400
    • Decreased Paratrooper production costs: Food from 1000 to 500, Goods from 2000 to 1750, Manpower from 1500 to 1300
    • Decreased production time of Paratrooper from 48h to 32h


    Reason: This change is actually not related to the Research Balancing, but is done now as well as the time is fitting. We heard loud and clear that most of you think that Paratroopers in their current state are for the most part not worth it, since they are competing with Commandos for their build slot. This change increases their cost-efficiency.

    -------------------------------------------
    These changes are now in effect in running beta games which were created after the 28th of May, so that you can test them immediately without the need to create new rounds.

    We plan to release all beta balancing changes in the game update next week to the live version. It will then only affect live games which are created after the update.


    I want to thank all of you for your invested time and your helpful feedback! I think together we were able to shape this Balancing update to be beneficial for the whole Community!

  • Clearly for what ever reason they seem to be hell bent on speeding the pace up. Probably in an attempt to please the COD kiddies that have the attention span of a gold fish.

    Its hard to to play x2 and x4 speed event maps when the research pace is so "slow" compared to the accelerated pace of the units. Hence the accelerated pace of research making units available sooner rather than later...

    Personally I enjoy the pace just like it is and do not find it realistic to maintain a faster pace for an extend period of time in such a complex simulation with so many moving parts. Unless you have no job, no family obligations and can afford to be online 20h a day that is.

  • Ifanwhen wrote:

    As I long time player I have to say that have got the game pretty well balanced already.
    Before the update wasn't bad, but with it will be soooo much better. Now there won't be a surefire way for the right strategy anymore. You'll now have adapt your strategy every day and in every game according to the situation (mainly according to which resources you have and which opponent you're facing). You will always have to re-think which units to build and research next. And now all units come into question for being the right choice (except for rocket fighters maybe and transport ships, but that's really details). This will make every game different, challenging and every moment of it interesting also for experienced players.
    You will now actually have to be intelligent to win, not only experienced. Which is the main characteristic of a good strategy game.
    Will be so much fun to play after the changes are released. You will see.

    I love this update now already. Biggest step forward that CoW has ever seen. Great job, Bytro.

    And Kanaris, I totally 100% agree with you it's good and has to be kept up that the majority of the games (i.e. all except for the 2*/4* speed rounds) have this slow pace. But this update doesn't change that. When I was also criticizing the earlier availability of later technologies that was because it unbalanced a few things in the first versions of this update. With the latest changes I see that as being widely solved. So now it's good to go!

  • Hans A. Pils wrote:

    Ifanwhen wrote:

    As I long time player I have to say that have got the game pretty well balanced already.
    Before the update wasn't bad, but with it will be soooo much better. Now there won't be a surefire way for the right strategy anymore. You'll now have adapt your strategy every day and in every game according to the situation (mainly according to which resources you have and which opponent you're facing). You will always have to re-think which units to build and research next. And now all units come into question for being the right choice (except for rocket fighters maybe and transport ships, but that's really details). This will make every game different, challenging and every moment of it interesting also for experienced players.You will now actually have to be intelligent to win, not only experienced. Which is the main characteristic of a good strategy game.
    Will be so much fun to play after the changes are released. You will see.

    I love this update now already. Biggest step forward that CoW has ever seen. Great job, Bytro.

    And Kanaris, I totally 100% agree with you it's good and has to be kept up that the majority of the games (i.e. all except for the 2*/4* speed rounds) have this slow pace. But this update doesn't change that. When I was also criticizing the earlier availability of later technologies that was because it unbalanced a few things in the first versions of this update. With the latest changes I see that as being widely solved. So now it's good to go!
    Oh I am so glad that I will now have to be intelligent to win. I have spent the last 4 years relying on being the least stupid! :P :D ;)

  • :D Of course being intelligent also helped before the update. But for your research decisions you so far didn't need to be - experience was enough for these. Before the update you could already at the beginning of the game almost precisely predict the exact sequence of research you'll go for. Which was boredom³. Always the same schema.
    Now after the update no way you can do that. You'll need your brain every time a research slot becomes free.

  • Regarding resources - especially food. I am a new player, and have only participated in a couple of rounds, playing as Ukraine. In both cases I have struggled mightily with food production, even though I have tried to build Infrastructure, etc. in resource locations. As a result in these scenarios I can afford to build limited infantry, and have to wait for food to catch up. I don't know ways to increase food production, and as a results I am constantly selling my other resources. Maybe there is point when you get "over the hump" and don't need as much food...and I just haven't got there yet. But early on even Barracks require food that I don't have.

    Again, I may have a misunderstanding, but I have played a number of on-line games, and in all cases the game swings grossly in favor of big spenders who buy "gold" or similar commodities in other games to speed up research, production, etc. Big spenders rapidly lap some of us, and make the game not really playable. I know this is a reality in online gaming, and I admit to being limited in my spending. And of course game companies make their money from in-game purchases. By nevertheless, I am concerned that raising the benefits of gold expenditure really will favor those big spenders, and limit competition for the rest of us!

  • Some tips:
    1. Do not train Infantry or Militia
    2. Inactivate Barracks unless you are desperate for manpower Their production time boost really only applies to level 1 industrial complexes and the higher the industrial complex the less effective their production boost.
    3. look at your consumption level and see if it is people or units that are the problem.
    4. Some scenarios have massive numbers of provinces whose only value is people $ and they eat a lot. The new configuration should reduce that.
    5. Trade away your militia or infantry to someone who is already grossly negative on food to reduce your draw down.

    If all things fail, don't worry about falling below negative on food as you will suffer a small morale hit, but you can train most good units without food.

    To store food place them in the market at a very high price, then cancel the sale and build what you need and save the rest. alternatively find an ally that is positive on food and use him as the Food Bank of the Coalition, and everyone trades their food away to them and they deal out the food as needed.

  • EZ Dolittle wrote:

    Some tips:
    1. Do not train Infantry or Militia


    5. Trade away your militia or infantry to someone who is already grossly negative on food to reduce your draw down.
    So basically you have come around to seeing my point that this update is wittingly or not pushing people towards more mechanized armies in essence encouraging lt/tac spam as a valid strategy.

    While we are at it lets rename the game to call of mechanized warfare because 1942 simply doesn't fit in this type of mindset

  • No, we haven't.
    Dolittle's tips 1. and 5. are correct, but already were correct before the update. Already before the update, infantry and militia were a no-choice for anyone who plans ahead. Which is a pity, since infantry was the most common unit in reality and that's the main reason why I since more than a year request food production and upkeep costs of militia, motorized, mechanized and mainly regular infantry to be lowered, while their manpower costs should be slighty raised in return. This would have several positive effects; I'll soon write another thread about it.

    But that's a different topic. As freezy already said, the update hardly changed the amount of food in the game. It only moved the times of food surplus from early to later game phases.

  • Well Freezy and yourself may be wrong as that is not what we are hearing from several players post update myself included.

    I have always built non motorized armies in the early game and the only limiting factory used to be manpower. This is no longer the case now the major limiting factor is the lack of grain as you need to save the grain for research. Before it was possible to remain close to 0 per hour grain production with no negative consequences. Again this is no longer possible as you need alot of positive grain production in order to keep researching.

    Thus the only viable option is to move away from armies that take lots of grain for upkeep which once again gives the advantage and encourages lt/tac spam or at any rate mechanized armies.

    Before the update it was hard but viable to have grain fed armies early game, this is no longer possible and yes it is VERY much as shame as it is completely senseless and ahistorical.