war tactics

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    • war tactics

      i think after my last thread about diplomacy changed nothing or did not been liked from the game i have another suggestion this time about strategy or war tactics

      this suggestion is so important and its in all strategy war games its when your surrounded an army how they dont get weaker or out of supply in the game they stay in the same hp as if there is nothing i think this should improved as soon as possible
    • I think this to be a good idea however I believe it will be hard to implement as the game mechanics lack the ability to represent troop morale, fighting spirit or willingless to fight (call it what you like) which is the first factor to be impacted when units get surrounded.

      Also I dont know how willing the developers would be to introduce such a concept in a game they describe to be a strategical simulation not a tactical one. Anyway it doesn't hurt to discuss it.

      As for supplies while its definitly a strategical considerstion once again the game mechanics do not exist to represent supplies like ammunition, food rations, bandages, spare parts, etc... I suppose the resource labelled "Goods" could represent supplies but we have no mechanic to ship goods from the factories to the front lines.
    • really thanks guys for the support but i think the developers did not like it but replaying to my dear Moderator i think this idea is in all games and it should be here and as my mate Edepedable said it gives a shape for the battle front in the battlefield and the air supply requires an air cover or and there is no specific air planes that send supplies so i am sorry i think your idea about supplies is not well supported don't take this words personally :) maybe my idea is not supported too but i am trying to give you my ideas and thank you for replaying ;)
    • Any war game is a simulation, and any simulation has some underlying assumptions. In this game, some of these assumptions are: linear movement to provinces through a single route, unlimited supply lines, and no real way to block resupply (even to block trade), and all buildings in the "center" of a province.

      Many very good ideas are violating, in one way or another, these assumptions. Yes, I would also love that troops need supply lines, as I would also like some of the other assumptions to be lifted, but I recognize that they are deeply rooted in the game mechanisms. It is both very difficult to define the meaning of "cut off", as the troops do not currently occupy the roads (they only occupy provinces), and also to introduce a new notion ("supplies") that can get exhausted.

      But that doesn't mean the idea isn't worth mentioning, even if it is not implemented in the near future. Perhaps the developers will see in it something that can simulate it and that can be implemented with less effort.
    • isreb wrote:

      i think after my last thread about diplomacy changed nothing or did not been liked from the game i have another suggestion this time about strategy or war tactics

      this suggestion is so important and its in all strategy war games its when your surrounded an army how they dont get weaker or out of supply in the game they stay in the same hp as if there is nothing i think this should improved as soon as possible
      The proposal is of course basically correct and reality accordingly, but as others have already said, an implementation does not really conform to the general gameplay ..

      .. fortunately, CoW is not a simulation but a simplified board game with unavoidable adjustments and comfortable automatisms -- as a real, pure simulation, such a game would be not only very time consuming and boring to manage but nearly impossible to play.


      isreb wrote:

      it is not necessary important to make a supply line or anything else it can be easilly when the troops are surrounded from 4 sides they will be out of supplies though that easy you can see that even in ho4
      Right, it would certainly not be a problem, to set it up that encircled troops would no longer be supplied..

      ..just as it would be no problem to set it up, that at lack of resources units might not or less fight anymore.
      (no adequate daily supply = no food, fuel, ammunition..)
      And that, of course, would have to be done as well, because how else would encircling influence the trapped troops?
      And of course it has to apply to all other troops as well then.

      So if there is a lack of food, affected troops would have to lose fighting power and, in the case of fuel shortages mobility, etc. ..
      (not a good solution, especially beginners and inexperienced players would certainly often have no operational troops)

      Also, all that would mean that there would have to be, at least imaginary, but somehow player-controllable supply lines, because if, for example, a player has only resources for a part of his troops he MUST have the opportunity to direct them towards to his important / desired units -- otherwise CoW would be a lottery ..

      But that would mean further that the current automatic supply of troops would have to be abolished general ..

      .. and also, as logical consequence of it, for example, oil that gushes from recently conquered South American provinces can't be longer available immediately as fuel for tanks fighting in Europe, but it has first to be refined and somehow transported there -- even if that would happen imaginary, it will have at least to take time ..


      So much effort for the occasionally case of an encircled city .. !??
      If I have anyway already conquered all the other provinces around there I would just kill the defending units and take that city ..

      Browser games are an ingenious business idea to lure out money -
      - more or less cleverly camouflaged as a real game sometimes.
      So beware of caltrops, spring-guns and booby traps. :00008185:
      Warning! Texts above this signature may contain traces of irony! :whistling:
    • reply to restrisiko

      big thanks to you for your effort in writing this full article but you can just skip all of this because when a city or army is surrounded the fuel,food wait get in there and actually i proposed the idea of,if there is no fuel the tanks,airplanes...etc will have less damage because your simply out of fuel they cant get into battle like the army with full fuel and if you tried ho4 before you will get my idea perfectly
    • isreb wrote:

      really thanks guys for the support but i think the developers did not like it but replaying to my dear Moderator i think this idea is in all games and it should be here and as my mate Edepedable said it gives a shape for the battle front in the battlefield and the air supply requires an air cover or and there is no specific air planes that send supplies so i am sorry i think your idea about supplies is not well supported don't take this words personally :) maybe my idea is not supported too but i am trying to give you my ideas and thank you for replaying ;)
      If a plane can transport bombs or paratroopers it can also transport logistics.
      I would like to see supply lines as it totally makes sense but maybe only for players of level 30 and higher so that the game doesn't get too complicated for new players.
      BMfox
      Moderator
      EN Support Team | Bytro Labs Gmbh
    • isreb wrote:

      .. i hope they implement it to the game soon ..

      isreb wrote:

      reply to restrisiko

      big thanks to you for your effort in writing this full article but you can just skip all of this because when a city or army is surrounded the fuel,food wait get in there and actually i proposed the idea of,if there is no fuel the tanks,airplanes...etc will have less damage because your simply out of fuel they cant get into battle like the army with full fuel and if you tried ho4 before you will get my idea perfectly

      How it is in other games is irrelevant anyway, because CoW just therefore is so popular and unique because it is different in many ways from other, similar games.

      Regardless of the fact that there are many more (and more important) things in CoW that are not, and others that can not be, realistically implemented (necessarily, to provide a better playability), I suspect you still not really want to see the reasons, why the supply system as it is (ignoring the borders and automatically), is good (better).
      (what I wanted to light up with previous my post)


      So you mean, if a province is "cut off", then it can logically not (completely) be supplied, and that should have an impact on the fighting power and mobility of the troops there -- in principle logical and in accordance with reality (I agree with you so far), but it would not appropriate to the game mechanics that CoW is based on, as I've tried to explain ..

      .. therefore here some other examples:

      For example, when will an island been cut off (surrounded)? As soon as there is at least one enemy submarine somewhere on all possible routes?
      And would the supply be guaranteed again if at least one own destroyer is located on at least one of these ways?
      Or when should islands be considered as "cut off" in such cases ..?


      Or what if several provinces were "cut off", if I, for example, as US, capture parts of Spain, but the coastal provinces behind me were recaptured by the enemy ..? ..

      .. and if I produce food in those provinces / areas, but no oil, will then my infantry units can continue to fight unrestrictedly and in full combat power, but my tanks become unusable ..


      .. which resource, by the way, counts as "ammunition" ..?

      For example, if I produce goods or rares in a, hostile encircled, area but no oil >> would my tanks not be able to drive then but can still be used as a stationary anti-tank ..? .. of course only as long as I have enough food in that area to feed the tank crews, and what if food becomes scarce after a while, does the firing rate decrease accordingly due to staff weakness?
      And how can I regulate that the existing ammunition and mostly of the food in this encircled area are provided to my primary combat units ..?


      .. or what if I, e.g. as US, hold coastal provinces in Europe but has lost sea sovereignty in the Atlantic - and how is sea sovereignty defined ...? .. must all any possible sea route be relocated by (superior) enemy naval forces, or decisives a general numerical (or strength specific) superiority in the relevant sea area (ocean) ..?


      And don't to forget .., .. what about ships / fleets that are located in the Mediterranean, for example, and have no, at least allied, province there, when are they considered to be "no longer supplied" ..? .. or similar situations anywhere else, when own fleets no longer have an enemy-free sea route to provinces with own or allied naval bases ..?


      .. or vice versa, if I produce sufficient oil or food in "encircled" provinces / areas, then logically this can not be used for supply of units and provinces elsewhere and they will maybe be affected by lack of supply ..!?
      If one has several exclaves*, then, consequently, each will get theyr ressources only for itself ..? -- .. so there may well be (extreme) situations where you are positive in all resources by production from scattered provinces / areas all over the map, but nevertheless not can supply adequate your troops and provinces ..!?


      .. all these, and many more, possible constellations would not only result in an enormous need server-side calculation performance result, but would also force the players into a, at first glance, although strategically tempting, but in the long run annoying and confusing micromanagement.

      That's why we should be glad that such things have been automated here at CoW, because just that makes this game so easy and enjoyable to play.

      *

      Browser games are an ingenious business idea to lure out money -
      - more or less cleverly camouflaged as a real game sometimes.
      So beware of caltrops, spring-guns and booby traps. :00008185:
      Warning! Texts above this signature may contain traces of irony! :whistling:

      The post was edited 2 times, last by Restrisiko ().

    • Restrisiko wrote:

      The proposal is of course basically correct and reality accordingly, but as others have already said, an implementation does not really conform to the general gameplay ..


      .. fortunately, CoW is not a simulation but a simplified board game with unavoidable adjustments and comfortable automatisms -- as a real, pure simulation, such a game would be not only very time consuming and boring to manage but nearly impossible to play.
      I agree.

      Restrisiko wrote:

      Also, all that would mean that there would have to be, at least imaginary, but somehow player-controllable supply lines, because if, for example, a player has only resources for a part of his troops he MUST have the opportunity to direct them towards to his important / desired units -- otherwise CoW would be a lottery ..

      But that would mean further that the current automatic supply of troops would have to be abolished general ..

      .. and also, as logical consequence of it, for example, oil that gushes from recently conquered South American provinces can't be longer available immediately as fuel for tanks fighting in Europe, but it has first to be refined and somehow transported there -- even if that would happen imaginary, it will have at least to take time ..
      I do not agree.

      Restrisiko wrote:

      how else would encircling influence the trapped troops?
      Glad you asked.

      Damage eficiency modifiers already exist in the game. Tanks in a city? -50% damage output and -50% HP.

      Something similar could be implemented for all troops if they are in a surrounded province (not necessarily a city) they would suffer an HP and damage output penalty. The imaginary supply lines would just be using the roads that connect the province where a players units are in to a players core. There could also be a speed modifier for oil consuming units. Being armor or planes or both. Perhaps planes could no longer fly without a supply route, or not after X amount of days. Though for simplicity, damage and HP modifiers would suffice.
      Yes, I am fully aware that this is still not an easy feature to implement, but is is significantly less complicated than what Restriko implies needs to be changed.

      The weirdness of sea landings under this system

      How about sea landings? since you could imagine troops being supplied through the sea, no penalty would apply if you invade a coastal province and are ''surrounded'' at your new destination. As long as your core somehow connects to the sea and so does the province in your posesion at your destination. Meaning that afther the intitial landing, you would have to make sure that you stay in possesion of a coastal province at your new destination.

      But what if the enemy puts his navy in front of your new coastal landing spot and theoretically, all suplies would sink?
      That would be weird.

      So perhaps implementing such a change would lead to having to logicly implement some changes that would make the initial change no longer logical. As Restriko also hints at, though not necessarily.

      I think the surrounding of troops could be implemented by adding damage and HP modifiers. The line should be drawn there. Though a reconsiderment for coastal invastions could be wishfull.
    • I'm still thinking the idea does not really fit into THIS game as it is and is therefore basically not a good idea unless we want to have another game and change the basic game mechanics.

      example

      From a map long ago:

      I was Germany on a Europa map and right away at the beginning of the game I sent some units by sea to Saudi Arabia to secure the oil wells there.

      There was still peace throughout the Mediterranean at that time.
      Over time, I was able to conquer Saudi Arabia, Syria, and Iraq down there and build up the region to lucrative and strongh provinces, with infra, industrie, bunkers and good mixed defend units.

      The oil from down there could be used immediately for my troops in the homeland region, and the resources from the homeland accordingly in the Middle East. (as the existing game mechanic works >> automatic supply everywhere and for all)

      Later I was together with my allies Sweden and Spain at war against, among others, Italy, Turkey and Egypt -- though Italy was the undisputed maritime ruler in the Mediterranean and a land connection to the oil wells was not possible I successfully could defend them until we defeated the enemys, because the main battles took place on mainland Europe, around the Black Sea and in Algeria. (wonderful war, furious battles, good match -- probably everyone has experienced something similar before)

      On the other hand, with the "cut-off" rule, the match (the big war) would be over before it could really start, because ALL my units in Central Europe would have been impaired or stopped in lack of oil, vice versa the oil provinces would not have had enough other resources (and not only my provinces would been affected from a cut off, but also some of the other combatants) .. - .. although all resources were produced with surplus by the way!!
      (a cut-off regulation would have stifled in the bud a good match ..)

      Note: many units would be needed, only to protect all-possible (imaginary) supply routes (cut-off positions) and this game would not really be as it is anymore ..

      Browser games are an ingenious business idea to lure out money -
      - more or less cleverly camouflaged as a real game sometimes.
      So beware of caltrops, spring-guns and booby traps. :00008185:
      Warning! Texts above this signature may contain traces of irony! :whistling:
    • Restrisiko wrote:

      as the existing game mechanic works >> automatic supply everywhere and for all
      And this would remain unchanged.

      Restrisiko wrote:

      a land connection to the oil wells was not possible
      A sea connection would suffice. Since resource transport in the game happens by magic (or invisible transport). Your core would need to somehow connect to the sea. So would your middle eastern provinces. Both connect to sea? = not isolated.

      Only units would be affected by adding damage modifiers to isolated units. You would still gain the resources even if they are isolated. So tactics and strategy would be affected in the game. Logistics would not be introduced as a large scale mechanic.


      Restrisiko wrote:

      Note: many units would be needed, only to protect all-possible (imaginary) supply routes (cut-off positions) and this game would not really be as it is anymore ..
      [/spoiler]
      True. But in this case I am willing to say that this might be a good idea. It would increase the strategic depth of the game tremendously. Which, I think is a good thing. Though if it turns out that it makes the game unwantedly different. It should not be implemented.
    • Well, I think if a suggestion seems complicated and/or difficult to realize, it shouldn't be suggested. Restrisiko is right the game mechanics should be kept simple and development time is precious.

      Also the idea of being surrounded / being cut off has been discussed a number of times already - better first use the search function before opening a new thread.

      BUT then, I can think of a way how it can be implemented quite easily, without breaking anything in the game and without a need for annoying micro management; also intuitive and immediately understandable for everyone.

      For those who are interested in how it would work, here comes full specification (freezy, if you want to copy that into a ticket, feel free to do so ;) 8) ) :
    • Provinces get a new attribute isSurrounded. When the map is created, this of course is set to false for all.

      Then each time a province changes its owner, a function is called to check for all neighbouring provinces whether they now are surrounded according to the following definition: It's owners units cannot march from this province to either the sea or a core province or the capital of the owner without crossing neutral or hostile territory.
      This function can be implemented with an easy recursive algorithm. I write it in Java-like pseudocode:

      ==================================================================

      ==================================================================

      Only assumption I made is that all provinces are serially numbered with a provinceID
      (if that's not the case, you have to do the marker which province was already visited by the algorithm somewhat differently).

      So if a province hence became marked as surrounded, there is a red icon clearly displaying this in the province detail view (after clicking on a province).
      And at day changes, the owners troops on such provinces don't converge against 100% HP, but against 0% and that with double speed.
      Files

      The post was edited 4 times, last by Hans A. Pils: very hard to enter source code fragments / pseudocode in this forum ().