Announcement Research Balancing Update

    • Mr. Bridger wrote:

      Why doesn't a certain level (lvl 6) in the "normal" Naval research tree need to be investigated to produce Nuclear BS, Nuclear subs and Nuclear Carriers? now I can produce nuclear carriers without knowing the construction of at least level 1 normal carrier ...?!

      For Nuclear Rockets this condition (rocket lvl 4) remained.


      That's not very logical ...


      I would suggest the need for basic research.
      The new research tree is FULL of such things. For example, as it is now, although you need Infantry Lvl1 to research normal arty, AT, and AA, you can theoretically research Mechanized Infantry, SP arty, and SP AA without having researched anything in the Infantry tab (a complete mistake obviously).

      Or, you can research SP Arty without even knowing how to build AC.

      The whole research tree was made SO HASTILY and without any serious consideration that is amazing.
    • atreas1 wrote:

      Perhaps, if instead of 1, 2, 4, 8, 12, 16, 20
      it was 1, 2, 4, 8, 14, 22, 30

      It would make much more sense.

      I like the way at the start the game escalates faster now. I hate the fact that already by Day 8 there are maximum 4 types of units around.
      Why should level 4 units be available at day 8? If the average 22p game lasts 30-40 days and the average 100p game last 40-60 days how does it make since to have better then half way to max research for units by day 8 meaning by ~20% of the duration of the game for 22p and by 16% game duration for 100p. Hell you can have elite units for over half the duration of the game!

      How is this supposed to be balanced? Specially if you consider the lethality of lvl4 units in general and their availability by day 8?

      Furthermore just to give a simple example out of many; in what universe do you equate lvl3 militia with lvl2 motorized infantry? Because both are available for research on the same day, Or fighters and tacs, or Destroyers and Battleships?

      If that is supposed to be "balanced" I really don't want to see what Bytro considers broken... The old research trees may not have been perfect but it was much more balanced and made much more sense.
    • First of all, a wrong assumption - that the average 22p map lasts 30-40 days. With the previous research tree, which was WAY slower, I didnt have a single game that lasted more than 30 days apart from my first one. We can say that the average is around 20-30 days, but experienced players will easily finish it in under 20 days (as will happen in my current game btw). Perhaps even before Day 15.

      I very carefully avoided the word "balanced" because I happen to believe it is not. I said "better". I also specifically said about the nonsense of equal research times based on only the day.

      Furthermore, I have written elsewhere that it is about time to have different research trees for the 22 map and the 100 map - to pretend that they are similar is equivalent to saying that I will make a perfect car that wins both F1 races and cross-country ones.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by atreas1 ().

    • I'm sure the problems you're describing (big amounts of nukes and high-level planes early in the game) are because players now spend more gold. The early availability of such super-weapons makes it very tempting to press the "I WIN" button.
      If you consider this a negative development depends on whether you look at it from player or from company perspective. Anyhow what urgently should be done to soften this is to make rares cost twice the amount of gold as other resources. Currently they cost the same, which makes it all too easy to boost your research with gold.

      I'm still convinced the research balancing update is very well balanced as long as nobody uses a lot of gold. Cause if you don't spend much gold, it's a losing strategy to spam tacs, tanks or nukes in early or mid game.
    • Hans A. Pils wrote:

      I'm still convinced the research balancing update is very well balanced as long as nobody uses a lot of gold. Cause if you don't spend much gold, it's a losing strategy to spam tacs, tanks or nukes in early or mid game.
      Apart from the fatal "as long as" clause, which certainly will be untrue in bigger maps (simply by the law of propabilities) which would result by definition to unbalanced game, let's be serious now.

      I take as an example Day 8 - early game, nothing special. Trust me, the situation in the next days is certainly worse due to research times. Since each research is 20h, practically you can research 8 things in the next 4 days, till the next research cycle starts. 2 of them are necessarily the planes upgrades, plus at least one arty (most probably two), plus at least one armor (some chance of two). Then you need a weapon to fight planes (normal or SP AA) and tanks, certainly either an upgrade on the infantry you use or an AT, and most probably rockets.

      In the next 4 days, due to the increase of research time to 30h you will have time to research exactly 6 of these units AGAIN, in order to fight successfully. The rest of the units are thrown in the wastebin for ever.

      Congratulations! This balanced upgrade just completely killed the role of the navy, made more than 50% of the units obsolete, and just gives an easy option to pay for a win in the bigger maps.
    • To the stubborn ones that will reply but the new research trees make more units available earlier on!

      Let me preempt you, had the primary objective of this research update been to make more units available sooner there was a much simpler way that was proposed by many, make more research slots available instead of only 2

      I do not pretend to know what the ultimate goal of the redesign was, but lets not kid ourselves making more units available sooner was not it.
    • Kanaris wrote:

      To the stubborn ones that will reply but the new research trees make more units available earlier on!

      Let me preempt you, had the primary objective of this research update been to make more units available sooner there was a much simpler way that was proposed by many, make more research slots available instead of only 2
      To me it seems to be that before the update, having a lot of troops was prevented by the duration of research and the availability of research at certain times.

      Now having a lot of different troops is being prevented by shortage of resources. The result being the same.

      A small number of units that have advantageous game mechanics or high damage output gets researched, the rest does not. Before the update because there was no time, after the update because there are no resources.

      Seems to me the game indeed has changed in terms of gameplay, but the ''problem'' as in having a small variety of units out of all the possible units available has remained. Additionally the tempo of the game changed a lot with these changes. It is a lot more fast paced than it was before, this in turn means that old strategies and tactics no longer work. And, what I see as the main issue at the moment, high activity has become even more of a deciding factor in the game.
    • Edepedable wrote:

      To me it seems to be that before the update, having a lot of troops was prevented by the duration of research and the availability of research at certain times.
      Now having a lot of different troops is being prevented by shortage of resources. The result being the same.
      With one footnote: now it is prevented BOTH by shortage of resources at the start of the game, AND by duration after Day 8 (and especially after Day 12).
    • I'm currently playing 1939 world map with new research tree. I have been fortunate enough to play with players with no evidence of gold use.
      Anticipating the quick research of other players has only led me to be more aware or resources in the early game as oppose to trying to match their research ambitions.
      Focusing on tactics and resource management especially with infrastructure in core resource producing territories has led me to be the only player left with resources enough to continue research and troop builds.
      Previously resource production was a secondary concern with troop building the primary. This seems to have switched.

      I think the changes have unfortunately favoured the golders and not the tacticians
    • It should be noted that all changes are made in terms of greater Bytro profits.

      Unfortunately for real players - this is the way to hell.
      Now the game is ideal for players (as someone wrote here) who can and want to pay pressing the "win" button.
      At least limit gold spending to (for example) 25k per day and put some logic into the research tree.
      Or to add new games to the choice of new games that would not allow gold to be spent and at the same time would not be rewarded (but this is a total utopia :)).
      Now CoW is a children's patch with credit card access.
    • When the big maps will stop seeing players, after it is realized what will probably happen eventually there, this whole thing might be revised. That is the only practical way.

      It is not bad to exist a method to win via gold. It is bad that the method is so easy and (comparatively) cheap and without real possibility of counter with normal play.
    • New

      Mr. Bridger wrote:

      Why doesn't a certain level (lvl 6) in the "normal" Naval research tree need to be investigated to produce Nuclear BS, Nuclear subs and Nuclear Carriers? now I can produce nuclear carriers without knowing the construction of at least level 1 normal carrier ...?!
      In case it was intended to drop that dependency, that indeed was a really very bad idea. That change should be... no, must be reverted!