New neutral firing rules are terrible

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    • New neutral firing rules are terrible

      New

      Hi all,

      So the past few days, I noticed that my subs and destroyers, which I use quite extensively for patrolling and scouting at sea, were engaging and causing war with multiple (previously) neutral nations, causing me to unwillingly go at war with them.
      After reporting what I thought was a glitch, much to my surprise it was revealed to me that this is part of a semi-recent update, the details of which I have verified and confirmed today.

      Here's my take on the update which makes your units engage neutral units they cross paths with :
      IT'S TERRIBLE.

      While I can understand the concept applied on land, because if you are crossing paths with neutral units that most likely means you're infringin on the sovereignty of the resepctive nation anyway, it's a deeply misguided idea when applied at sea as it compromises a whole aspect of naval travel and combat, for the following 2 reasons :
      • The sea doesn't have a nationality attached to it. It makes no sense that two vessels from nations that are respectively at peace would fire at each other just because they cross paths, especially when taking into account that CoW sea travel works by "nodes" and thus forces you along certain paths. If we did this in real life we would've had WW3 on our hands a long time ago.
      • This compromises the entire patrolling or scouting aspect of naval gameplay in CoW, since now you'll have to be careful when approaching a nation's coast or a much-travaled waterway for fear of causing war with someone. It also almost completely nullifies the stealth element of subs because they will now reveal themselves and attack at the slightest encounter. Subs thus lose a huge portion of their strategic use.
      I think the concept as a whole is aggravating and we should get rid of it completely, or at least for naval units.
      At most, if the devs insist on keeping it, they could restrict its application to when you're on an embargo with a country. that way you could still set up naval blockades without being at war with someone. With realtions set on "Peace" this makes no sense. Peace means Peance and the game should not arbitrarily force you to go to war with a nation you're not at war with. But as it is right now players like me who like to extensively use naval units will be faced with constant casi belli just for using naval units, which is penalizing.


      EDIT : I know about the Hold Fire command. However, this option is limited to members of the High Command, who pay for that status. That means that the game just got less practical/more restrictive for players who don't spend money to play CoW. Without wanting to sound like an alarmist, I can only see that as a very bad precedent.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by VIRVCOBRV ().

    • New

      Have posted the same reply to a similar post. Will repeat:

      Just a note, they have plans to modify the update so it is more of an opt-in thing rather than everyone is forced to use it. See freezy's post here as well as the second part of Arcorian's news post here. Just know changes will take time and while it may not address all of your concerns, the more feedback that is given on a certain idea/criticism, the more consideration it may get.

      VIRVCOBRV wrote:

      Hi all,


      While I can understand the concept applied on land, because if you are crossing paths with neutral units that most likely means you're infringin on the sovereignty of the resepctive nation anyway, it's a deeply misguided idea when applied at sea as it compromises a whole aspect of naval travel and combat, for the following 2 reasons :
      • The sea doesn't have a nationality attached to it. It makes no sense that two vessels from nations that are respectively at peace would fire at each other just because they cross paths, especially when taking into account that CoW sea travel works by "nodes" and thus forces you along certain paths. If we did this in real life we would've had WW3 on our hands a long time ago.
      • This compromises the entire patrolling or scouting aspect of naval gameplay in CoW, since now you'll have to be careful when approaching a nation's coast or a much-travaled waterway for fear of causing war with someone. It also almost completely nullifies the stealth element of subs because they will now reveal themselves and attack at the slightest encounter. Subs thus lose a huge portion of their strategic use.

      Just to address some points here, in real life, during war time "peaceful" nations would more likely have enough diplomatic relations enough that they would be equivalent to Right-of-Way in this game. In that case, most of their warships will be able to pass peacefully. Secondly, you can still use interceptors for scouting. Agreed that subs their strategic advantage, making the fire control opt in should fix this.
      --
      Trying to be helpful, If my answers are incorrect, please let me know and provide the right information.
      I am not all serious, will tag along for a joke.
    • New

      Delby wrote:

      Have posted the same reply to a similar post. Will repeat:

      Just a note, they have plans to modify the update so it is more of an opt-in thing rather than everyone is forced to use it. See freezy's post here as well as the second part of Arcorian's news post here. Just know changes will take time and while it may not address all of your concerns, the more feedback that is given on a certain idea/criticism, the more consideration it may get.

      VIRVCOBRV wrote:

      Hi all,


      While I can understand the concept applied on land, because if you are crossing paths with neutral units that most likely means you're infringin on the sovereignty of the resepctive nation anyway, it's a deeply misguided idea when applied at sea as it compromises a whole aspect of naval travel and combat, for the following 2 reasons :
      • The sea doesn't have a nationality attached to it. It makes no sense that two vessels from nations that are respectively at peace would fire at each other just because they cross paths, especially when taking into account that CoW sea travel works by "nodes" and thus forces you along certain paths. If we did this in real life we would've had WW3 on our hands a long time ago.
      • This compromises the entire patrolling or scouting aspect of naval gameplay in CoW, since now you'll have to be careful when approaching a nation's coast or a much-travaled waterway for fear of causing war with someone. It also almost completely nullifies the stealth element of subs because they will now reveal themselves and attack at the slightest encounter. Subs thus lose a huge portion of their strategic use.

      Just to address some points here, in real life, during war time "peaceful" nations would more likely have enough diplomatic relations enough that they would be equivalent to Right-of-Way in this game. In that case, most of their warships will be able to pass peacefully. Secondly, you can still use interceptors for scouting. Agreed that subs their strategic advantage, making the fire control opt in should fix this.
      Thank you for your answer. Good to see they are taking the feedback into consideration.
    • New

      I am also glad they are working on it, but I was hoping this debacle would be over soon. Randomly crossing convoys even go to war. This has caused war 5 times in two matches with me recently, my subs and convoys were sunk by peaceful countries I had no beef with. In real live, the US and Russia have passed by each other 1000's of times in international waters, and even the US has been passing by Iranian ships during heightened tensions without going to war.

      I like the opt in Idea in case I want to make sure no future enemies are passing subs. Perhaps it should only be allowed in between sea nodes that end at a coastline and international lanes are fair game for neutrals to pass unless the other country specifically declares war. Countries don't ask for permission to sail international seas or shipping lanes, and they don't expect to get sunk for excising rights.
    • New

      I already give ROW to all AI nations day 1, and yes even more important now. Some games they reciprocate fast, sometimes very very slow. The lost ships and wars this caused were live players. I even gave one person ROW when I saw his convoy was going to collide with me, while the paper said he started the war, it was still a war and my my units were down to 40% strength by the time I got a sub in there to set them free. There are some adjustments that can be made, but it decreases the value of subs and may still damage you politically if you are caught spying with subs. I have found myself avoiding shipping lanes, ducking out just enough so ships can pass on a logical path, and sending subs to spy the coast zones that have no naval bases.
    • New

      Yes the other player also needs to give you ROW, otherwise they will still attack. It definitely needs rethinking and I hope it happens sooner than later. One thing is sure, I think twice now before going after countries with sea crossings. I'm definitely not playing the 50 Pacific map right now :tumbleweed:
      BMfox
      Moderator
      EN Support Team | Bytro Labs Gmbh