Suggestion: Buff Tank Destroyers

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    • Suggestion: Buff Tank Destroyers

      Tank Destroyers need some rework in this game. The unit given the name "Tank Destroyer" should not perform better against infantry than vs the tankiest tank (Heavy Tank).

      TDs (Tank Destroyers) feel so awkward. A filler unit disguised as a specialized unit. A defensive anti-armor unit that is almost as fast as a medium tank and hardly a "tank destroyer". What is the point of building them? Unless you have already optimized your Light, Medium and Heavy Tank numbers, there is nothing the TD has to offer.

      In the TD's description, it tells you that it is the best unit to counter attacking tanks. That is wrong. In almost all scenarios, Heavy Tanks are best suited to counter attacking tanks. More health, better defensive values (except at elite level, where they finally do less damage by only 1 point). The two most important factors in defending is your defensive value and your health. The Tank destroyer is cheaper, quicker, and takes less time to build. How does that help me counter attacking tanks? What is their role as an armor unit? You should not build them unless as a filler unit.

      The TD, unlocked at day 4 and built with infrastructure lvl 2 is competing with the Medium Tank as priority. A tiny bit cheaper, 5 more health, 6 hours quicker and more effective defending vs armor. These advantages do not compensate enough to compete with the medium tank. The TD runs into a major issue; it is neither a competitive general-purpose unit, nor a competitive specialized unit. Because the Medium tank is necessary as the next step up for general-purpose armor, but also the only way to get into Heavy Tanks, you find no issue prioritizing them over TDs.

      Heavy Tanks are significantly better general-purpose units than TDs, but are also somehow very competitive with TDs as... uh... Tank destroyers. If the TD is going to be a specialized unit, it needs to outperform the Heavy Tank in tank destroying (at least defensively).

      I feel as though many other people could come up with better solutions to balancing out the TD and giving it a competitive role in the game, but I will give you my suggestion.

      A big reason the TD cannot fill a niche is because of how dominant the Heavy Tank is. In my opinion, the game should take out the Heavy Tank's bonus defensive values and buff the TD's defensive values to be twice the amount as their offensive values (just like the Anti Tank Infantry). This would still allow the Heavy Tank to be the strongest general-purpose armor, but open up room for the TD to specialize in countering attacking tanks. I would also recommend slowing them down at least one tier (4km/h) to give them a more defensive design.

      As a side note, it also feels strange having the Heavy Tank perform better defensively than offensively when the Light and Medium Tanks do not benefit defensively. It would make more sense for the Heavy Tank to perform similarly to the Light and Medium Tank while the Tank Destroyer featured the specialty of having a bonus defensive value.

      Thanks for reading and feel free to let me know what you guys think!
    • I find that most players use tanks in groups, keeping within SDBE of course. So it should be a given that you counter with the same. With that in mind, you have to consider the number built in the same period of time. Assuming you have all the building requirements ahead of time, you can build 3 Tank Destroyers in about the same time as 2 Heavy Tanks. In the battle calculator dxcalc.com, you find in any case using the same day as a research restriction, the lvl 1 HTs will be destroyed by the lvl 2 TDs, given that the heavy tanks are the attacking force of course.
      --
      Trying to be helpful, If my answers are incorrect, please let me know and provide the right information.
      I am not all serious, will tag along for a joke.


      Delby
      Moderator
      EN Support Team | Bytro Labs Gmbh
    • EchoDelta wrote:

      Tank Destroyers need some rework in this game. The unit given the name "Tank Destroyer" should not perform better against infantry than vs the tankiest tank (Heavy Tank).
      Really?



      You can clearly see that the Tank Destroyer is four times more effective against the armor branch. Actually it's pretty vulnerable against the infantry branch.

      TD are the perfect unit to counter tanks. The only unit that can win against them is the Heavy Tank. The TD is a defensive unit and for such not to be used to attack tanks. They are perfect to protect borders, to shield of artillery and in stacks.

      The heavy tank is a slow and very expensive unit that in all the games I've played, had never or very little been used.

      One should never prioritize a medium tank over a TD. Both units complement each other, when stacked together they can outrun and take down a heavy tank.

      Why would you go for a heavy tank anyway? There's this wonderful unit called "Mechanized Infantry" in the armor branch that is the fastest unit in the game, strong in offense and defense, high AA value.

      Diversity is the key in this game and I highly believe that artillery, SP artillery, medium tanks, motorized infantry, mechanized infantry and tank destroyers are the best unit selection to victory. Specially when you have a decent amount of interceptors and tactical bombers for air assistance.

      In short: i would tear your heavy tanks to shreds.
      BMfox
      Moderator
      EN Community Support | Bytro Gmbh

      Check out my YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/c/BMfoxCallofWar


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    • BMfox wrote:

      You can clearly see that the Tank Destroyer is four times more effective against the armor branch. Actually it's pretty vulnerable against the infantry branch.
      My point was that the TD are better matched vs Infantry than vs Heavy Tanks, especially early game. Early game, the optimal stack of 5 Heavy Tanks beats the optimal stack of 5 TDs. Even if the TDs are defending. The reason this is so bad is because of the fact that TDs are only good for defending vs armor. The fact Heavy Tanks can still beat them AND 100% outperform them offensively and vs infantry makes the TD a very useless unit.

      BMfox wrote:

      One should never prioritize a medium tank over a TD. Both units complement each other, when stacked together they can outrun and take down a heavy tank.
      In this discussion, we are replacing the TD with the Heavy Tank. Someone researching Heavy Tanks will still have Medium Tanks. The group of Medium Tanks with Heavy Tanks will take down the group of Medium Tanks with TDs, but yes they are slower. The point is that the TD is meant to be specialized as your defensive armor, when the Heavy Tank is much better to be used as your defensive armor.

      BMfox wrote:

      Why would you go for a heavy tank anyway? There's this wonderful unit called "Mechanized Infantry" in the armor branch that is the fastest unit in the game, strong in offense and defense, high AA value.
      Because my Heavy Tank (grouped with other units) can attack/defend better vs any armor, attack/defend better vs any infantry, and has very high health. If my enemy has invested in TDs, he is going to be behind because of how much the TD lacks. Mechanized Infantry are great, and make for a very powerful stack, especially with Heavy Tanks. An optimal group of Mech Inf with Heavy Tanks will do much better than an optimal group of TDs with Mech Inf.

      BMfox wrote:

      Diversity is the key in this game and I highly believe that artillery, SP artillery, medium tanks, motorized infantry, mechanized infantry and tank destroyers are the best unit selection to victory. Specially when you have a decent amount of interceptors and tactical bombers for air assistance.
      If someone had your exact build, but instead replaced your TDs with Heavy Tanks, they would be in a much better position 99% of the time. Heavy Tanks are much more useful than TDs in almost every element in the field. An optimal group of either TDs or Heavy Tanks is just 5. 5 Heavy Tanks does so much more vs EVERYTHING than 5 TDs. 5 Heavy Tanks are even better when defending vs Tanks, but they are especially better doing everything else.

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      My whole point of this is to explain why the TD is a useless unit, they do not fill a niche and are outperformed in the only thing they are good at (defending vs armor), by a unit that is exceptional fighting anything on the ground. A Heavy Tank should not be that competitive with the TD in defending armor. In a realistic mirror match vs your identical self (replacing TDs with Heavy Tanks), the Heavy Tank clone will win. His stacks will be tankier when fighting artillery battles and be much more effective offensively and vs infantry.

      I do not mean to make Heavy Tanks look OP or make it out like Heavy Tanks are a necessary unit to build. All I am saying is that there is no point investing in TDs because Heavy Tanks leave them no room to thrive.

      Thank you for your response and feel free to let me know if anything I said does not make sense. :)
    • Delby wrote:

      I find that most players use tanks in groups, keeping within SDBE of course. So it should be a given that you counter with the same. With that in mind, you have to consider the number built in the same period of time. Assuming you have all the building requirements ahead of time, you can build 3 Tank Destroyers in about the same time as 2 Heavy Tanks. In the battle calculator dxcalc.com, you find in any case using the same day as a research restriction, the lvl 1 HTs will be destroyed by the lvl 2 TDs, given that the heavy tanks are the attacking force of course.
      It is unlikely the Heavy Tank player is going to send his small group of 2 lone Heavy Tanks at the province holding the only 3 TDs the enemy has :P. That being said, you are much more likely to have battles of more optimal stacks, stacking your 5 Heavy Tanks or your 5 TDs with many other units. The stack with the 5 Heavy Tanks is going to be so much more powerful than the group with 5 TDs. Heavy Tanks are completely worth their slower speed and higher cost if you are looking for powerful armor units to stack. A TD just cannot compete with the Heavy Tank in realistic scenarios you would have playing this game.

      But yes, you are right. If you decided to send your Heavy Tanks at the TDs, before they are at their optimal stack, they will lose. However, if those 3 TDs attacked the Heavy Tanks, the TDs would lose very badly. And if those TDs needed to be used offensively or vs infantry, they would be way less useful than the Heavy Tank, which is my point. The TD is not a competitive unit when comparing it to the Heavy Tank.

      Thank you for taking your time to read my suggestion and write a response! :)
    • Why do you try fight 5 HT vs 5 TD?

      5 Infantry are commonly stronger then 5 militia...


      If you let fight same value of ressourses and production time and researchcosts, you schoult fight 2 HT vs 4 TD in city, or on plainborder blocker TD vs not plain border attacker HT.

      Afterthat say one more time TD need a buff...