submarine warfare and detection

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    • papadopoulos-colonel wrote:

      destroyers should be able to detect submarines subs they are super over powered till someone makes naval bombers while making destroyers would balance it early on
      Actually a level 1 sub is hopelessly, hilariously outgunned. The most you can do with a level 1 sub is sink a batleship, but aside from somebody who spends gold, who are you going to encounter that has a battleship early in game? They literally take days to construct, and that's not even counting building the 3 naval base upgrades needed. In the time it takes to build a battleship, you can build 3, 4, maybe even 5 destroyers. If you're afraid of losing a transport to take some overseas territory, just guard it with a destroyer. The naval tree is actually pretty balanced, you're just overestimating the strength of subs... well, kinda.

      Sure, you can't see a sub, but subs are actually very, very weak. So weak that I almost never use them tbh.
    • Zippofish wrote:

      Destroyers are sub hunters. They are and were the anti sub ship. I believe they should be able to detect subs within their firing range.
      That would make subs completely useless as destroyers are cheap and common. In WW2 detecting submarines was extremely difficult and the best units for detecting them were the naval aircraft that were equipped for that mission.

      Even today the game of hunting submarines is quite complex. The job of a submarine is to evade detection at all costs.






      One other interesting tidbit about actual submarine detection during WW2. The best way for allied forces to locate enemy U-boats was by cracking their codes. Once the enigma code was cracked it was easier for the allies to intercept messages about the operating area of U-boats, and to steer convoys away from those areas. So you might say that spies are even more valuable than naval bombers. ;)
      War is a game that is played with a smile. If you can't smile, grin. If you can't grin keep out of the way til you can. - Winston Churchill



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      The post was edited 1 time, last by VorlonFCW ().

    • papadopoulos-colonel wrote:

      subs they are super over powered till someone makes naval bombers
      Wrong. Submarines are overrated garbage which is hilariously underpowered against escorted ships. Destroyers are already one of the most common ships you see players use. Due to this, subs are hopeless against battleships and convoys protected by destroyers. There's simply no way a sub can beat a fleet of 11 ships, let alone ones with Naval Bombers as support
    • The classic B&W movie "The Cruel Sea" shows how difficult it was to detect Subs & for that matter, even destroy them when you had. Convoy losses were rarely down to solo subs since the Wolf Pack (a targetted and coordinated attack by multiple U-Boats) became the favoured approach. Blethcley Park cracking Enigma, Lorenze etc gave the allies a way to fight back but reality was, without lack of aircover mid Atlantic, convoys were in peril since their escorts were rarely front line Destroyers but older Frigates, Corvettes and converted ships. Front line Destroyers were needed to guard Task Forces, Battlegroups, Carriers etc. Detecting a sub at Destroyer range would be wrong. Calm sea, Sub surfaced having a BBQ, you might, but submerged you wouldn't see it.
    • During World War II, Germany used submarines to devastating effect in the Battle of the Atlantic, where it attempted to cut Britain's supply routes by sinking more merchant ships than Britain could replace. By the end of the war, almost 3,000 Allied ships (175 warships, 2,825 merchantmen) had been sunk by U-boats. Although successful early in the war, ultimately Germany's U-boat fleet suffered heavy casualties, losing 793 U-boats and about 28,000 submariners out of 41,000, a casualty rate of about 70%.

      Despite their technical prowess, Japan chose to use its submarines for fleet warfare, and consequently were relatively unsuccessful, as warships were faster, more maneuverable and well-defended compared to merchant ships.

      The submarine force was the most effective anti-ship weapon in the American arsenal. Submarines, though only about 2 percent of the U.S. Navy, destroyed over 30 percent of the Japanese Navy, including 8 aircraft carriers, 1 battleship and 11 cruisers. US submarines also destroyed over 60 percent of the Japanese merchant fleet, crippling Japan's ability to supply its military forces and industrial war effort. Allied submarines in the Pacific War destroyed more Japanese shipping than all other weapons combined. This feat was considerably aided by the Imperial Japanese Navy's failure to provide adequate escort forces for the nation's merchant fleet. During World War II, 314 submarines served in the US Navy, of which nearly 260 were deployed to the Pacific. US submarines sank 1,560 enemy vessels, a total tonnage of 5.3 million tons (55% of the total sunk).

      The Royal Navy Submarine Service was used primarily in the classic Axis blockade. Its major operating areas were around Norway, in the Mediterranean (against the Axis supply routes to North Africa), and in the Far East. In that war, British submarines sank 2 million tons of enemy shipping and 57 major warships, the latter including 35 submarines.
    • Subs are still very useful in the game for several reasons and if used properly:
      • It is amazing how many players send there ground forces across the water with no escort. Subs are great for dealing with this kind of stupidity.
      • As a scouting force an early deployment of subs can tell you what you are up against prior to invading an area, or as a screening force for your navy, or simply to scout potential opponents.
      • In larger naval battles they can tip the balance, charging the enemy warships who are engaged at range, or providing a cheap screening force to slow the enemy if you find yourself outgunned and needing to retreat.
      • When researched to higher levels they can quickly dispatch the lone low level destroyer.
      If programming was not an issue, it would be more realistic for players to trace supply routes of resources, and enemy subs placed along these routes could then take a toll on how much resource actually makes it back to the homeland or factory. Subs would then be significantly more valuable and interesting to use on any of the maps with lots of water. This would make NAV Bombers to hunt them a higher priority. Sadly the NAV Bomber is one of the more underutilized units.
      "A good plan, violently executed now, is better than a perfect plan next week." - General George S. Patton, Jr.

      "Do, or do not. There is no try" - Yoda
    • I'm new and granted, my limited knowledge bears acknowledgement..

      Having Said that....
      #1 unit in Game - Tac Bomber
      #2 unit in Game - Sub (99% of maps, anything with 50% of map being water... best cheapest spy you can find in game)
      #3 unit in Game - doesn't matter if you know how to use #1 and #2... you're well on your way to winning.


      I've spotted guys moving their ENTIRE armies via convoy to attack some place... and I've sunk the entire thing with a few subs just because you can't let 45 units remain on the board when you have a chance to take them out...

      That ability alone makes them grimm reapers to the foolish and unsuspecting. No other unit has that kind of ability so early in the game.
      General Maximus Decimus Meridius - "Are you not entertained?"
    • Armour/Infantry/Secret... they all fall under #3... and then Militia would be #4 (most useless unit in game)

      ... a land grabber is a land grabber... if it crawls, drives or walks.. it'a all the same... though faster is often better to keep up with the AirPower.

      (LoLz.. Note To Self - Still got lots to learn)
      General Maximus Decimus Meridius - "Are you not entertained?"
    • One of the maps I am playing I am winning against the tactic you’re suggesting by fighting almost primarily with naval bombers and fighters. K/D ratio generally about 10-1. It’s taken almost a week but I’ve managed to push the United States all the way across the pacific, completely destroying their navy and Air Force... not to mention sucking his economy dry trying to reinforce. The tactic is good as long as someone doesn't counter it.
      Save the goldfish! They need your help! Goldfish are trapped in small bowls all across the globe!
    • Zippofish wrote:

      One of the maps I am playing I am winning against the tactic you’re suggesting by fighting almost primarily with naval bombers and fighters. K/D ratio generally about 10-1. It’s taken almost a week but I’ve managed to push the United States all the way across the pacific, completely destroying their navy and Air Force... not to mention sucking his economy dry trying to reinforce. The tactic is good as long as someone doesn't counter it.
      That's why subs are#2 best unit in game..... for the cost of 5 Naval Bombers, I can drop 15 Subs in the drink... then you've got to build how many Airfields along your coast to support them?

      As they say in chess... "It's not the move but the fear of the move, that's where the real power lays"

      ... and If I put 3 subs on your ports, and killed one convoy.... then you spend all those resources to defend against 3 subs....

      As I said, TB is your Flying Armour, hard hitting and super mobile... the Sub.. that's your fear inducing spy... Everything else is just support that claims land. it's a scalpel with glaring weaknesses in it's strategy, but unless you're specifically ready for it... it'll slice through you like a hot knife through warm butter.
      General Maximus Decimus Meridius - "Are you not entertained?"
    • OneNutSquirrel wrote:

      That's why subs are#2 best unit in game..... for the cost of 5 Naval Bombers, I can drop 15 Subs in the drink... then you've got to build how many Airfields along your coast to support them?
      As they say in chess... "It's not the move but the fear of the move, that's where the real power lays"

      ... and If I put 3 subs on your ports, and killed one convoy.... then you spend all those resources to defend against 3 subs....

      As I said, TB is your Flying Armour, hard hitting and super mobile... the Sub.. that's your fear inducing spy... Everything else is just support that claims land. it's a scalpel with glaring weaknesses in it's strategy, but unless you're specifically ready for it... it'll slice through you like a hot knife through warm butter.
      It is indeed situational. I was able to do it all with one airfield and the carriers I built behind the lines. I agree the subs make every move an anxious one, and are good for intelligence. Just to me it seems easy to build the forces to exploit the weakness from scratch.
      I think maybe where our opinion really differs is that what I view as support is the opposite of what you see. I see navy, air, artillery as support for the land forces claiming land.
      Save the goldfish! They need your help! Goldfish are trapped in small bowls all across the globe!
    • I would like to come back to the first discussion:

      papadopoulos-colonel wrote:

      destroyers should be able to detect submarines subs they are super over powered till someone makes naval bombers while making destroyers would balance it early on
      In WWII Sonar had a range of 1500 meters. If you had located an enemy, you first had go too above them by ship because destroyers tryed to killed submarines with depth charges. Theese bombs were thrown from the back of the ship, so the destroyer first had to drive over to was able too use them. (also look: Sonar)

      Zippofish wrote:

      Destroyers are sub hunters. They are and were the anti sub ship. I believe they should be able to detect subs within their firing range.
      If you want to get this game closer to history, it should bee possible too detect submarines with destroyers, but not to attack them, before they havn't the same location. By the way such an attack often wasn't succsessfull because the destroyer frequently needed a minute to get to the right place. Because of this the submarine had time for diving.
      Moreover the destroyer couldn't use sonar during fast driving or throwing depth charges, because water became restless. so the ship attacked blind.
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    • Sounds like what you suggest is to do away with any ranged attack versus subs, as the destroyers 5" gun would be useless. Therefore reprogramming destroyers to only have ranged attack versus surface ships. That would make sense.
      "A good plan, violently executed now, is better than a perfect plan next week." - General George S. Patton, Jr.

      "Do, or do not. There is no try" - Yoda