The Overpowerness of Rockets in Call of War

Chimere · Mar 4th 2020, 2:12pm

Bundy34 wrote:

Chimere wrote:

Well, some - if not most - people have no concern with rockets in Call of War. Isn't their opinion valid ?

Just because people are against the idea of weakening Rockets doesn't mean they have no concern about Rockets. Some of them are Rocket Spammers themselves and talking against an idea that will be better for the game and we are talking about the Serious concern of Rockets not talking about if they use Rockets or not.

Have you imagined that you are maybe wrong about this whole "rocket" thingie ?
I don't use rockets and I don't think they are a problem (except for spammers).

Bundy34 · Mar 4th 2020, 2:16pm

@Devious Rancor First you brag about how you are "Experienced at this game" then you talk about how you played this game for many many years, Then you talk about your experiences on the games you played where you seen a couple of Rockets. Then you talk about the use of "Strategic Bombers".

Devious Rancor wrote:

There are many ways to defeat Rockets: use your own to destroy your opponent's on the ground, employ Strategic Bombers to damage/destroy the airbases that the rockets are sitting on, then use Tactical Bombers to destroy the grounded rockets

Are you kidding!. No one and I repeat No one ever produces Strategic Bombers unless they are beginners of the game. You only research Strategic Bombers to get Nuclear Bombers not to produce Strategic Bombers to damage buildings!. That's why there is a thing called Military Sabotage. And even if you do damage an airbase all it takes is 3 Hours to build the Airbase back and if he has other buildings where the Airbase is your so called Strategic Bombers will not damage the Airbase. Then you talk about the need for Nukes to beat Rockets LOL!!

Devious Rancor · Mar 4th 2020, 6:29pm

Little Racoon wrote:

In my view, rockets can be very good, but I don't use them often. Why?

Rockets are only good in static warfare, and in CoW, nothing is totally static. The pain of transporting them from the production bases to the front is agonizing, and sometimes since you advance too fast, the rockets can't catch up and will basically be useless.

Actually, I have another — very timely — anecdotal bit of evidence. Yes, Rockets can be good. They can be very good. Yes, they might seem OP, but I'm counting on that right now, because I just woke up to find two large empires invading my not-as-big empire. And unlike all the other matches I'm currently in — and not like any other matches I've been in for the past few weeks — I've been stockpiling Rockets in this particular match. And I'm using those Rockets against Artillery, against stacks attacking my cities, and against stacks that are moving, though close to my cities.

Unfortunately, I only had a small amount of Gold, and though I usually don't use Gold, I went ahead and used what little I had to upgrade my level 1 Rockets to level 2, figuring that'd at least give me an edge. And yes, I was "spamming" level 1 Rockets with level 1 airbases while I only have 2 level 2 airbases. Interestingly, I've been slowly spamming up a Rocket arsenal kinda late, because the current max tech level is actually level 3 Rockets. I was beginning to upgrade two the second level —to be followed by the third — but had to rush the tech "into service" so to speak, so I Gold-finished level 2, but don't have enough to do level 3. So if I can hold back some Rockets, I will, while waiting for level 3 to finish.

And for those of you who are smarter than the average bear and have figured out that I said I rarely use Gold, though I'm out of Gold, yes, I did use Gold a few times recently: once in a match last Christmas, where I spent most of my Gold in my yearly Gold bash match (to get rid of my winnings) and then a little bit here and there to finish up builds and such, just before a factory gets attacked on the ground, or to finish something up so I can go to bed, etc. I used to not even do that much Gold, but I've gotten a bit soft lately...so sue me!

Anywho, back on topic....in other matches, I have enough level 2 airbases to build lots of Rockets, should I need them. But this has been a quiet match (up until now) and I thought I had a good peace accord with my nearer neighbor (of the two attackers). But, last night, I saw some of his ally's forces lining up on my border. I'll bet he wishes he kept his forces back a bit, beyond what I could see, because I then pulled some units from my other front to act as a stopgap (my other front hadn't started the war yet, but I'm going ahead with it anyway, because it's a weakened AI player who has killed off all his other units with another player).

Anyway, so I'm rushing some forces back to a relatively defenseless line. But my Rockets are saving the day alongside my Bomber fleet. Oh, and of those "two" empires, only the far one has a competitive military...technically bigger than mine. The fact that the nearer one was fairly weak militarily, was why I was counting on him leaving me alone. But he got guts vicariously from his ally. And he's going to be in for a real shock when I walk right through him to get to his big brother....and by "walk", I mean trounce on everything in my path.

Little Racoon wrote:

Sure, at the beginning of a war, rockets are in fact OP if you're the one initiating the war. Recently I fired only ten rockets in a certain 22p game, the first one to destroy the airbase of the enemy, the next nine to destroy the armies there, including the grounded airforce. I absolutely love how I obliterated the entire enemy airforce with just a click of a button. However, after the initiation of the war, rockets lose their usefulness as the enemy begins to react and the war becomes mobile. My rockets take a whole two days to travel from my production centers to the front, days that may make or break a war. And probably by the end of those two days, I'd probably either lost or won already.

I beg to differ. Yes, Rockets are very nice at the beginning of a war, as a first wave, and maybe a second or third one two. But Rockets have their usefulness throughout even a very long war, as I've witnessed many times. I've had Rockets be used throughout wars that lasted literally weeks and months. Not all wars are over in a day or two. Oh, and the key to avoiding the long wait for Rocket convoys is to either research faster sea convoys and ship across water routes, or else build the Rockets in new forward bases as you capture better cities.

Bundy34 wrote:

Also this thread is made to talk about the serious concern of Rockets in Call of War, not hearing other players opinion if they use the Rockets or not.

How can a person have an opinion about whether they do or don't do a thing. An opinion is an idea about a thing, not a fact about a thing. It is an opinion that I like to use Rockets. It is a fact that I do use Rockets. And apparently, it's a fact that you do not use Rockets. I hope you enjoy playing this game with the disadvantage of not allowing yourself access to all the options available to you.

Devious Rancor · Mar 4th 2020, 6:38pm

Bundy34 wrote:

@Devious Rancor First you brag about how you are "Experienced at this game" then you talk about how you played this game for many many years, Then you talk about your experiences on the games you played where you seen a couple of Rockets. Then you talk about the use of "Strategic Bombers".

Devious Rancor wrote:

There are many ways to defeat Rockets: use your own to destroy your opponent's on the ground, employ Strategic Bombers to damage/destroy the airbases that the rockets are sitting on, then use Tactical Bombers to destroy the grounded rockets

Are you kidding!. No one and I repeat No one ever produces Strategic Bombers unless they are beginners of the game. You only research Strategic Bombers to get Nuclear Bombers not to produce Strategic Bombers to damage buildings!. That's why there is a thing called Military Sabotage. And even if you do damage an airbase all it takes is 3 Hours to build the Airbase back and if he has other buildings where the Airbase is your so called Strategic Bombers will not damage the Airbase. Then you talk about the need for Nukes to beat Rockets LOL!!

It is bragging to state a fact? You don't know me. You don't know my reputation, apparently. That's OK. I don't need your praise and adulation. It is irrelevant. And you are wrong. Yes, many people don't use Strats often. In fact, I don't very often, either. But I have seen a [very] few use them early in a match. They have their usefulness. And I've used them to great effect exactly as I've indicated. A stack of mixed air units will have the ability to accomplish the job of the desired mission type, while the non-mission-critical units help absorb AA fire. That is how Strats are useful. If you need to weaken a heavily-fortified unit stack at a fortress, you can bring in a nice stack of Strats, Tacs, and Fighters. The Strats injure the Fort, the Tacs injure the units, and the Fighters help ease the AA damage against both of them.

And Strats have a much better range, which means they can hit the unguarded airbases of rear rocket pads with ease. So that advantage that Rockets have of better range "outside the reach of the enemy" simply doesn't exist. As I've said many times before, EVERY unit in this game has a countering unit that is effective against it. And in most cases, there is more than one unit type that has an advantage against whichever "OP" unit you are thinking of.

You might not like it that I have experience. You might not like it that I have an opinion. You might even think I am full of bullcrap, just because my player ranking on this forum is very low. But that has nothing to do with my player ranking in the game. Just because I haven't posted much, recently, doesn't mean that I don't have a presence in the game. And there's other things I could say, that would make my point, but I can't say them for reasons I can't reveal here.

So get over yourself. Stop being jealous of my experience, and go get your own experience. If you can't accept or believe what's said here, then see for yourself. Play a few dozen or a few hundred matches and see if you still think the same way. After 2 or 3 years, you come back here and tell me if I'm wrong. In the meantime, I'm going to go play me a couple hundred also.

cya!

Ryan04px2025 · Mar 4th 2020, 7:51pm

I see that a few previously active forum members have gone back to the forums!

K.Rokossovski · Mar 5th 2020, 8:45am

Bundy34 wrote:

Chimere wrote:

Well, some - if not most - people have no concern with rockets in Call of War. Isn't their opinion valid ?

Just because people are against the idea of weakening Rockets doesn't mean they have no concern about Rockets. Some of them are Rocket Spammers themselves and talking against an idea that will be better for the game and we are talking about the Serious concern of Rockets not talking about if they use Rockets or not.

That's a ridiculous argument. For example, I'm a fanatic air force player myself; that makes me realize exactly how overpowered they are, and I will argue at the forums whenever the argument comes up to maul them. Talking about why people do or do NOT use rockets is exactly the right thing to talk about when anyone argues that they are OP.

freezy · Mar 5th 2020, 3:38pm

Bundy34 wrote:

freezy wrote:

Bundy34 wrote:

freezy wrote:

Chimere wrote:

Rocket can only hit static or very very slow enemies. the problem of balance IMO is that they don't damage units on your own side, so they are very good against units engaged in battles that cannot break.

In the CoW1.5 version we changed that and made rockets damage also friendly units. There rockets also have (relatively) lowered damage vs. units.

First of all the changes are next to nothing. You also want to have Flying Bombs as well in your new update to add a weaker version to a already amazing unit called Rockets LOL!!

The changes in 1.5 to rockets are pretty significant. Calculate how much damage percentage a lvl4 rocket does in 1.0 to a lvl 7 inf and then calculate how much damage a lvl 4 rocket does in 1.5 to a lvl 7 Inf. There is a wide gap in the result.

And please tell me what it is

- damages friendly targets
- In CoW1.5 it currently does 31 ground damage on lvl 4. A lvl. 7 Inf has 65 hitpoints. Compare that to CoW1.0: A lvl4 rocket currently does 38 gound damage and a lvl7 Inf has 15 Hitpoints. Means in CoW1.0 a rocket lvl4 can potentially kill 2 high level Infs in one blow. In CoW1.5 a lvl4 rocket can only remove half of the HP of a high level Inf in one blow.
- to make up for that Rockets do relatively more damage to buildings and morale in CoW1.5 than in CoW1.0.

btw those values can still be tweaked in future updates.

General cdub · Mar 7th 2020, 5:45pm

I have to agree with Bundy on many aspects to what he states about Rockets.

I don't believe they should be removed from the game but the cost of making Rockets needs to be drastically increased, especially with Rare Materials.

I have watched people Spam Rockets and just target every air base in range.

I understand you need people to buy and spend gold to make Call of War a viable business, but there does need to be a considerable adjustment to the Rocket Program.

General cdub

Little Racoon · Mar 8th 2020, 4:05am

Could we keep this chat civil (sorry General cdub, I'm not aiming this at you)? We are supposed to be in a good debate on the usefulness of rockets, and that is good. Yet, when I read the last few posts, some of them were quite toxic and has almost nothing to do with the thread! When you start using personal attacks in an argument, you have already lost. There are also cases where threads are closed due to many people being toxic. So please, keep this thread alive by being civil and pray no one comes in with an ad hoc fallacy!

gusv · Mar 8th 2020, 6:55pm

I do not think that rockets need to be more expensive! However, I agree that may be they could be tweaked down a bit in their destructive power. CoW is a WW2 game, and rockets at that time were not as powerful nor as accurate as they are today ...

Ryan04px2025 · Mar 8th 2020, 11:28pm

The only concerns that I have is that it is easily spammable.

Teburu · Mar 10th 2020, 7:50pm

Ryan04px2025 wrote:

The only concerns that I have is that it is easily spammable.

i think the problem is that there isnt any sort of counterplay to it other than being active 24/7

on top of that their damage scales pretty well while in COW 1.0 units dont have that much health
and since there is no scaling of unit costs in 1.0 they ofc are highly spammable mid-lategame

and tbh their cheap cost is kinda ridiculous when you put into perspective that this is supposed to be WW2

an interesting change to rockets would be making them only able to target the center of a province
this would still make them viable for punching through fortified positions while giving a reliable option to counterplay them

Nooberium · Mar 10th 2020, 9:21pm

1. With a large enough economy, anything is spammable (well, not nukes so much).
2. If someone thinks a unit is OP, wouldn't it make more sense to make a lot of them to take advantage rather than whining about it?

I don't remember when I stopped whining myself. I just realized it is useless to complain but more effective to adjust my play to the game as it is. This is helpful because every round is different and rebalancing updates happen occasionally so no recipe or formula will give the best results.

General cdub · Mar 10th 2020, 9:48pm

Nooberium wrote:

1. With a large enough economy, anything is spammable (well, not nukes so much).
2. If someone thinks a unit is OP, wouldn't it make more sense to make a lot of them to take advantage rather than whining about it?

I don't remember when I stopped whining myself. I just realized it is useless to complain but more effective to adjust my play to the game as it is. This is helpful because every round is different and rebalancing updates happen occasionally so no recipe or formula will give the best results.

Nooberium,

I do not believe anyone was whining about Rockets. Lord knows I was not. I have lived with it and as you say, I have adjusted my game play to those that do it.

For me I was only suggesting that Rockets should be more expensive in resources to build and take a longer time to build. I don't believe they need to be adjusted to the strength of them though.

Again sir, only a suggestion. As I read the posts, I for one didn't take any of them as whining. Maybe sir, you are being just a bit too critical of others. I mean no disrespect to you if I took your post incorrectly sir.

If people do not post things of what they would like to see, the game will just stay the way it is and over time people will get bored. Hence the whole 1.5 Version they are working on.

With all due respect,

General cdub

Ryan04px2025 · Mar 10th 2020, 11:19pm

Teburu wrote:

Ryan04px2025 wrote:

The only concerns that I have is that it is easily spammable.

i think the problem is that there isnt any sort of counterplay to it other than being active 24/7 on top of that their damage scales pretty well while in COW 1.0 units dont have that much health
and since there is no scaling of unit costs in 1.0 they ofc are highly spammable mid-lategame

and tbh their cheap cost is kinda ridiculous when you put into perspective that this is supposed to be WW2

You want any rockets? Or ground to air?

If they are easily spammable, it can also do a lot of damage.

Nooberium · Mar 11th 2020, 1:14am

I wasn't replying to anyone in particular but some of what I read sure sounded like whining to me. Players with limited experience have opinions based only on their play style. Everything in the game has a counter, so when people say unit X is OP, I just hear that they haven't yet learned how to deal with it. I'm not annoyed that some players think the game needs to change instead of their play, but I do think it's lame.

Devious Rancor · Mar 13th 2020, 9:38am

freezy wrote:

In CoW1.5 it currently does 31 ground damage on lvl 4. A lvl. 7 Inf has 65 hitpoints. Compare that to CoW1.0: A lvl4 rocket currently does 38 gound damage and a lvl7 Inf has 15 Hitpoints. Means in CoW1.0 a rocket lvl4 can potentially kill 2 high level Infs in one blow. In CoW1.5 a lvl4 rocket can only remove half of the HP of a high level Inf in one blow.
- to make up for that Rockets do relatively more damage to buildings and morale in CoW1.5 than in CoW1.0.

To be fair, I think the CoW 1.5 version of Rockets is a little underpowered, but then also, the upgraded units are progressively too expensive. It seems to boil down to having to choose whether you want a bunch of outdated units or a very few select elite units which take forever to build and cost an immense amount of dough. So, though the rockets may seem less powerful in CoW 1.5, they are still doing a somewhat-equivalent amount of damage — proportionately — to the economic production levels of war materiel.

And on this whole CoW 1.5 business:

Though I get the reasoning behind this new direction, I find it impractical and hard to play....especially for the majority of experienced Bytro fans like myself. Also, it's interesting that even a level 1 unit like the Heavy Tank is so strong that it can take hit after hit with barely a scratch by some of the weaker units. To me, that unit seems OP, but I still get the appeal of actually having one (though I haven't built any, yet, myself) and I've already seen a user try to spam them.

To me, the separate "ordinance" block and having different types of factories is novel, but having to manage all the different types....especially in a larger empire....is fast becoming a headache, not to mention that the fast build of weaker units requires High Command or else checking in many many times per day. It's turning into a logistics nightmare for me....and I am a very attentive player who usually likes logistics.

I sure hope the CoW 1.5 is treated as a mod, and not as a replacement for standard Call of War. I hate to admit it, but I think I will have to leave the game again, if they get rid of the original CoW. I'd hate to see the vast majority of dedicated gamers leave in mass droves because of this change. But then again, I've called for making the game mod-able by the community, and they haven't/won't do that. So I assume they probably won't treat CoW 1.5 as a mod either. ..... sad.

Little Racoon wrote:

So please, keep this thread alive by being civil and pray no one comes in with an ad hoc fallacy!

Ooh, it looks like someone remembers something from their grammar classes....."ad hoc".

gusv wrote:

CoW is a WW2 game, and rockets at that time were not as powerful nor as accurate as they are today ...

Not that powerful....unless you were in the middle of their intended target (and if it actually did hit it's target). Then, it was quite powerful.

General cdub wrote:

If people do not post things of what they would like to see, the game will just stay the way it is and over time people will get bored. Hence the whole 1.5 Version they are working on.

Actually, some change is good and some change is bad. The new CoW 1.5 has some of each....good and bad. I've made many MANY suggestions over the years (many thoughtful ones and some more spur-of-the-moment ones). And I've seen some few of my ideas actually adopted in the earlier days of the game. Lately, though, it seems like the only ideas the developers have tend to be their own, like the 1.5 mod (yes, I'm calling it a "mod", and I hope that moniker sticks, to prevent it from permanently replacing CoW 1.0).

On the other hand, I think the whole no-new-unit-production-in-non-urban-provinces concept is a terrible idea that was copied from Conflict of Nations by Bytro's sister company. That idea alone is the single biggest reason why I don't play Conflict of Nations (and I tried it for several months before coming to that conclusion). And though I know that so many MANY good ideas fall on deaf ears, it would be immensely solvable if Bytro would just open up Call of War to modding by those of us in the community.....whom have a deep DEEP understanding of this game and have a talent for things like making new playable maps and/or new playing styles (all without breaking the core game).

But, so long as they depend on their outmoded "premium currency" economic format, I doubt that Bytro will ever EVER consent to modding of the game, especially now, since they've removed the ability for non-HC people to start their own matches. Not to brag, but I've got so many awesome ideas on how to mod this game in new and exciting ways. And the fact that Bytro won't let me — or anyone else — create modded content just denies the playing community a virtually endless platform of new playing styles and original gaming concepts all based on the same Supremacy core that Call of War was built upon. And of all those ideas that aren't adopted by the developers, many could and would get added to individual mods as the modding community would find ways to integrate many of the various ideas into their individual projects. Such would make this game so much more interesting.

Sadly, some ideas just won't be accepted, no matter how great they are. And to my knowledge, the developers....and their accounting department overlords that tell them not to risk their income....aren't about to let the community have access to any part of the game engine, even though it's already totally accessible via the developer tools of any browser.

Some day, maybe they'll get wise and open the game code up for anybody to modify. The potential for revenue would soar, if they played their cards right. But even if they were willing to do that, I doubt they'd want to develop any in-game modding tools for the average user. So the only mods that would get created would be by the precious few uber-dedicated gamers like myself whom actually have a talent for developing game code. With a decent tool set, anybody would be able to make a simple mod version of the game for them and their friends to play this game with whatever crazy rules they can imagine.

After all, who wouldn't like to start a match where everybody has 10,000 Rockets and 50,000 Militia as targets.

Little Racoon · Mar 13th 2020, 9:44am

Devious Rancor wrote:

After all, who wouldn't like to start a match where everybody has 10,000 Rockets and 50,000 Militia as targets.

I like this.

K.Rokossovski · Mar 13th 2020, 9:50am

Yeah, modding the game would be great. I fondly remember playing all those weird civ-IV mods, designed by people all over the world, turning it into a space opera, a dungeon adventure, a post-apocalypse world, a computer industry simulator, and so much more... there were some I played literally dozens of times. Really sad that a subject like this cannot even be discussed.

Devious Rancor · Mar 13th 2020, 9:58am

K.Rokossovski wrote:

Yeah, modding the game would be great. I fondly remember playing all those weird civ-IV mods, designed by people all over the world, turning it into a space opera, a dungeon adventure, a post-apocalypse world, a computer industry simulator, and so much more... there were some I played literally dozens of times. Really sad that a subject like this cannot even be discussed.

I think it can be "discussed". It's just that they aren't interested. And it is sad when you consider and imagine all the endless amounts of talent that abounds among the fans and players of Call of War. We are a serious community of players that are so devoted to this game. To be denied the ability to take some kind of responsibility for it, through modding the game, or adding new concepts that could generate revenue (especially in lieu of being a paid premium user (e.g., if you can't afford it))———well, to be denied that participation hurts as it shows that the people at Bytro don't seem to have faith in their most devout followers to actually make the game — and the gaming community — better through our generous and free contributions of content to the game itself and to Bytro. Imagine what all that freely-developed content would do for Bytro's resell-revenue.

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