Call of War 1.5: Introducing Doctrines

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    • GeneralAumSum wrote:

      f118 wrote:

      GeneralAumSum wrote:

      I would go for the pan Asian one because of the early stability
      wich stability bonus? There is none...
      There is, the more stability the more morale, the more morale the less time units and buildings can be made
      i repeat my question, wich stability bonus do you mean? There is no moral bonus for pan asia announced in doctrin description. Is description wrong? Please put good readeble screenshot with answer, what you mean.

    • I am extremely happy with the doctrine applying a blanket bonus / malus to all units.

      I really don't think that applying bonus and malus BY UNIT in a given doctrine is a good idea. I actually think it is a bad idea for two important reasons

      - It means that some countries are just way better (or worse) than other with some units, which means that instead of choosing what you are going to research depending on your natural resources, on your neighbours own research and basically on your strategic situation, you will do the research depending on your doctrine strength & weaknesses. And if your natural resources are not fit you are screwed
      - It also means that when you are fighting a diversified stack of enemy, since you cannot be really expected to remember all bonus and malus by unit, you will have to instead each unit type one after the other to know what to expect.

      Long story short :
      - Cool, but bad design
      - It makes the game WAY more complex WITHOUT adding more choice for the player.

      Applying a blanket "Soviet doctrine gives -20% cost but also -10% Attack" would not have removed any choice to the player, would have added a bit of complexity but in an interesting way ('how do I beat a player with a lot of low quality troops").

    • blue44elephant wrote:

      Balhog wrote:

      blue44elephant wrote:

      The devs actually did their research and then added these. If they allow everyone to chose their doctrine then no one will play certain doctrines and their work will be gone to trash.
      I can see this being a nice enhancement. I'm sure its been well tested prior to release. How you distribute the Doctrine advantages within the continents, could be decisive to game play
      If you want to run around with axis doctrine then go choose an axis country but don't whine about not being able to choose doctrine, I don't want see Germany rolling around an M4 Sherman. Conflict of nations has the system.
      I tried conflict of nations. It sucked bad, for some of these very reasons. Never put a dime into it.

    • Torpedo28000 wrote:

      The amount of players who join maps and then drop out to play another one is very high. I believe should a player join a map and not be able to select the doctrine they want, they are more likely to go inactive in search of another map.
      No. If you are a player for whom it is important to play with the same doctrine every time, you'll enter only maps which still have countries with that doctrine selectable. Thus making doctrines fix for each country will not increase drop-out rate.


      Torpedo28000 wrote:

      on maps like the 22, will some nations get the pan asian doctrine? [...] Similarly on maps like the 22, will some nations get the pan asian doctrine?
      I expect and hope that every country will get the doctrine that's matching the unit skin it already has. Since no country on 22map has Asian skin, PanAsian doctrine wouldn't appear in this scenario. There are at least countries with Axis and Allies skins in the American home-front (the other two I'm not sure), so we'll have at least these two doctrines in that scenario.


      Torpedo28000 wrote:

      If I hate the idea of the pan asian play style, but want to play as Japan. What do I do? I either take the doctrine I dislike and thus my game may be more challenging sure, but not as enjoyable. Or I don't play the nation I want to play.
      Players that are narrow-minded in both their strategies and their country choice will indeed have to swallow this bitter pill. That's life. Sometimes you can't have everything. Next thing, you'll probably complain about having the colour not selectable, but fix for each country. What do players do who want to play as Japan, but also want to play with yellow-coloured provinces? The game will be less enjoyable for these.
      Come on, if it's important for you to play as Japan, then bloody learn to use the advantages of the PanAsian doctrine.
      Freezy, you shouldn't even think about making doctrine selectable, even if the issues with realizing that weren't there - because it would be a debasement.


      Chimere wrote:

      instead of choosing what you are going to research depending on your natural resources, on your neighbours own research and basically on your strategic situation, you will do the research depending on your doctrine strength & weaknesses
      Not exactly. You'll now have to make your research and unit production decisions based on your doctrine AND on the criteria that so far already play a role (you named them quite precisely: resource situation, opponents, territory where you expect to meet them and your personal play style). It's good that doctrines add one more aspect you have to consider when deciding. However, possibly the doctrine bonus/malus for a few units MIGHT be a little bit too strong - which would make your unit choice too predictable for yourself and too easy to anticipate for your opponents. But this I'd call only a risk and not the impression I get from reading them. Think we should have an eye on that while testing CoW1.5.3.


      Chimere wrote:

      when you are fighting a diversified stack of [the] enemy, since you cannot be really expected to remember all bonus and malus by unit, you will have to instead [check] each unit type one after the other to know what to expect
      After a few games, you'll have in mind quite well which units of which doctrine have a strength bonus (these are not so many and they're easy to remember thanks to mostly being quite historically accurate). Also at the beginning of a war, you anyway have to click through the stacks of the enemy once to figure him out and I'm pretty sure Bytro remembered to display the doctrine bonus of the respective unit somewhere in the game. So I don't expect much trouble there. However:


      Chimere wrote:

      [doctrines] make the game WAY more complex WITHOUT adding more choice for the player
      That's true. Goes in the same direction as my statement that the complexity from doctrines adds less value to the game than the simplification of the unit value progression removed.

    • Tasmine wrote:

      @freezy

      This Doctrine idea is good. It also give the reasonable excuse for units uncorrect for those smaller nation(Like CoN). But...if split into doctrines, did Bytro forgot one of the important doctrine?

      Neutral, such as Switzerland and other nations.
      We would need to make a neutral skin as well then. But it's not super necessary. Doctrine in this context does not mean allegiance. Even neutral nations can use certain Doctrines, e.g. by having a certain focus or using tech from another country. And countries using the same Doctrine can still be enemies, as well as countries using different Doctrines can still be allies. Likewise neutral nations can use Doctrines as well.

      f118 wrote:

      GeneralAumSum wrote:

      f118 wrote:

      GeneralAumSum wrote:

      I would go for the pan Asian one because of the early stability
      wich stability bonus? There is none...
      There is, the more stability the more morale, the more morale the less time units and buildings can be made
      i repeat my question, wich stability bonus do you mean? There is no moral bonus for pan asia announced in doctrin description. Is description wrong? Please put good readeble screenshot with answer, what you mean.
      There is no stability bonus.

      Tasmine wrote:

      @f118

      That's what freezy said. He said 1.5 version will add morale develop time as same as S1.
      Are you refering to production times being affected by province morale? It is likely that this will be added to CoW1.5 in the future, but is not part of the upcoming version yet.


      Chimere wrote:

      I am extremely happy with the doctrine applying a blanket bonus / malus to all units.

      I really don't think that applying bonus and malus BY UNIT in a given doctrine is a good idea. I actually think it is a bad idea for two important reasons

      - It means that some countries are just way better (or worse) than other with some units, which means that instead of choosing what you are going to research depending on your natural resources, on your neighbours own research and basically on your strategic situation, you will do the research depending on your doctrine strength & weaknesses. And if your natural resources are not fit you are screwed
      - It also means that when you are fighting a diversified stack of enemy, since you cannot be really expected to remember all bonus and malus by unit, you will have to instead each unit type one after the other to know what to expect.

      Long story short :
      - Cool, but bad design
      - It makes the game WAY more complex WITHOUT adding more choice for the player.

      Applying a blanket "Soviet doctrine gives -20% cost but also -10% Attack" would not have removed any choice to the player, would have added a bit of complexity but in an interesting way ('how do I beat a player with a lot of low quality troops").
      I see what you are saing, but unit roles in CoW1.5 are much more distinct than in CoW1.0. Meaning that certain units counter certain other units harder than in the old version. These counters are still valid even if one of the units receives a buff from Doctrines, they are not made redundant by them. So in reality you probably don't want to miss out on certain units in your strategy even if those units don't receive a particular buff in your Doctrine. With certain units receiving buffs you can probably afford to produce less of them to achieve the same effectiveness, and spend the saved resources on units which don't receive extra buffs but which you still need to cover certain roles. As Hans already said there is also the surprise factor: Will you produce exactly the units that are buffed for your Doctrine and that your enemy therefore anticipates, or will you throw a curve ball and encounter him with units that he does not expect?

      I wouldn't worry too much about it yet. If we see that certain units are not produced anymore or others are produced too much we can still reduce the bonuses.

      Hans A. Pils wrote:

      I expect and hope that every country will get the doctrine that's matching the unit skin it already has. Since no country on 22map has Asian skin, PanAsian doctrine wouldn't appear in this scenario. There are at least countries with Axis and Allies skins in the American home-front (the other two I'm not sure), so we'll have at least these two doctrines in that scenario.
      That's currentlythe plan, yeah. Countries use the Doctrine that matches their skin, and certain maps will not feature every Doctrine. Gives an incentive to play more than one map for some variety.

      Hans A. Pils wrote:

      That's true. Goes in the same direction as my statement that the complexity from doctrines adds less value to the game than the simplification of the unit value progression removed.
      Well in our eyes it adds much more value. Probably only the most hardcore players actually care about if some stats progress historically accurate when leveling up, but a lot more players care about all the flavour that is added with the Doctrines. A lot more players will get excited about being able to play as their favourite Doctrine that has an actual effect in the game. It also adds much more replay value, because you want to start more games and check out the other Doctrines as well. Plus it has some nice effects on team games, where teams could combine different Doctrines in their playstyle.

      Since we anticipated the addition of Doctrines and its increased complexity already, we deliberately reduced the complexity in other areas (progression) to balance this out. Otherwise we would have one complex system which is intertwined with another complex system and then it becomes really hard to learn it.

      (We already discussed this topic in the other thread alot so I wont argue it further here now)

    • Btw, we did some small adjustments to the research availability, to even it out a bit better between Doctrines (e.g. moved Cominterns research buff for anti tank to attack bomber or moved Pan-asians research debuff from anti tank to Heavy Tank, and some others). You can re-check the Doctrine table in the manual.

      These will be the final adjustments before the next CoW1.5 iteration becomes playable. If there is any balancing issue remaining, it has to be sorted out during/after testing :)

    • freezy wrote:

      Btw, we did some small adjustments to the research availability, to even it out a bit better between Doctrines (e.g. moved Cominterns research buff for anti tank to attack bomber or moved Pan-asians research debuff from anti tank to Heavy Tank). You can re-check the Doctrine table in the manual.

      These will be the final adjustments before the next CoW1.5 iteration becomes playable. If there is any balancing issue remaining, it has to be sorted out during/after testing :)
      I volunteer to play in the 1.5 testing (not sure how it works).

    • revengegirl wrote:

      freezy wrote:

      Btw, we did some small adjustments to the research availability, to even it out a bit better between Doctrines (e.g. moved Cominterns research buff for anti tank to attack bomber or moved Pan-asians research debuff from anti tank to Heavy Tank). You can re-check the Doctrine table in the manual.

      These will be the final adjustments before the next CoW1.5 iteration becomes playable. If there is any balancing issue remaining, it has to be sorted out during/after testing :)
      I volunteer to play in the 1.5 testing (not sure how it works).
      Well everyone can playtest it soon. So with testing I meant making it available to all players again. It won't happen this week but you won't have to wait much longer.

    • freezy wrote:

      revengegirl wrote:

      freezy wrote:

      Btw, we did some small adjustments to the research availability, to even it out a bit better between Doctrines (e.g. moved Cominterns research buff for anti tank to attack bomber or moved Pan-asians research debuff from anti tank to Heavy Tank). You can re-check the Doctrine table in the manual.

      These will be the final adjustments before the next CoW1.5 iteration becomes playable. If there is any balancing issue remaining, it has to be sorted out during/after testing :)
      I volunteer to play in the 1.5 testing (not sure how it works).
      Well everyone can playtest it soon. So with testing I meant making it available to all players again. It won't happen this week but you won't have to wait much longer.
      Which map would the testing be?

    • Arcorian wrote:


      <br>Call of War 1.5: Introducing Doctrines<br><br>
      Attention, Generals!<br><br>
      With the next phase of Call of War 1.5 we are taking things a lot further than before! One of the major changes is the introduction of Doctrines in Call of War 1.5!<br><br>
      Doctrines will make a huge difference in how you play a nation, so it is important to understand what the Doctrine of your country is and how to take advantage of its strengths and how to compensate for its weaknesses.<br><br>
      In any Call of War 1.5 game round the country you pick will have one of four Doctrines, each having a distinguishable aspect to it. A country’s Doctrine is displayed on the country selection screen next to the available country. Doctrines are visualized throughout the game round to make sure you are able to immediately tell what Doctrine a country has - your own, as well as your allies and enemies. This is especially helpful when you play several game rounds at the same time and frequently switch between them.<br><br>
      The four available Doctrines are:<br><br>
      <b>Axis</b><br>
      Countries with the Axis doctrine have a very powerful and sophisticated military, capable of attacking the enemy with brutal force, but also robust enough to take an extra hit, where other units might have been taken out already. This impressive power however, comes with an extra cost. While units of Axis countries are a tough opponent in battle, they come with a higher price tag than units of countries with a different doctrine.<br><br>
      <b>Allies</b><br>
      The allied forces are masters of optimization. These countries’ strengths lie in their ability to adapt quickly and optimize production and research. Countries with the Allies doctrine produce units quicker and research faster than any other doctrine. Their research costs are lower, too. However, these advantages come at the price of a lower unit movement speed.<br><br>
      <b>Comintern</b><br>
      Countries with the Comintern doctrine don’t wait for the latest development of high-tech weaponry, when they see the possibility to just trample the enemy into the ground with overwhelming numbers. Comintern forces may deal slightly less damage, but the lower production and upkeep costs allow these nations to bring vast numbers of troops to any battlefield.<br><br>
      <b>Pan-Asian</b><br>
      Pan-Asian countries don’t use brute force or drown the enemy with large amounts of units. These nations make the most of preparing surprise attacks and take advantage of technology and terrains alike. Units of Pan-Asian countries not only move fast, but are also always aware of their surroundings. They have a higher view range than any other doctrine and make the best of the terrain they are fighting in. They are more vulnerable than other nations though.<br><br>
      There is much more in-depth knowledge to learn about Doctrines - e.g. Doctrines have effects on specific units - so we prepared a dedicated Doctrine page in our game manual which you can find <a href="https://forum.callofwar.com/?custom-page/&id=35" target=blank>here</a>.<br><br>
      We are eager to hear your thoughts and feedback on Doctrines in Call of War 1.5 and cannot wait to share more exciting news about our next update to CoW 1.5. Call of War 1.5 will be available to all of you very soon.<br><br><br><br>
      Your Bytro Team<br><br><br>
      Cool!

    • Tasmine wrote:

      @freezy

      This Doctrine idea is good. It also give the reasonable excuse for units uncorrect for those smaller nation(Like CoN). But...if split into doctrines, did Bytro forgot one of the important doctrine?

      Neutral, such as Switzerland and other nations.
      Neutral doctrine: nothing happens. no buff, no debuff. An ironically interesting idea.
      "As long as there are sovereign nations possessing great power, war is inevitable." Albert Einstein

      "Giving up is not an option in war, for it proves one's incapability and incompetence as a leader." - Me (Little Racoon)