the 1.5 building system dumbs down the strategy

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    • the 1.5 building system dumbs down the strategy

      TLDR: The separation of production, economic, and transportation buildings, as well as the inability to build in rural provinces, removes a significant layer of the strategy and depth that makes this game so great.

      First off I would like to say that enjoy and agree with all the other changes to 1.5 (the new unit balancing, the upgrade system, doctrines, etc), and I am not expecting or asking the devs to suddenly reverse course back to 1.0 based on what I say here; however, feedback is important for any creative project and I want to get my thoughts out.
      In 1.0 most buildings had multiple uses and some buildings overlapped in purpose (there were three buildings for economy, you needed industry and another building to build troops, and to upgrade both to build good troops fast). When you wanted to build a building you had to carefully way a number of considerations; how much will this boost my economy? Will this help produce the units I need? Will it help the units I produce get to the front quicker?
      In 1.5 every building has essentially 1 purpose, with a few having a minor secondary effect. When you want an effect you know exactly which building to build and where to build it. If you want an economic boost you build industry in your highest production province. If you want speed you build infrastructure in the place you need speed. If you want a type of unit you build that unit's production building in any province.
      This streamlining of buildings removes a major layer of strategy from COW. In a typical 1.0 game I would start my buildings with barracks in all my core cities to gain manpower and infantry for the first few days, then immediately start working on infrastructure for tanks & artillery. I started capturing intact industry outside my core I would build airfields and lvl 2 barracks in some of them because manpower is infinite and airfields have no economy so the non-core penalty doesn't matter. I would continue building up the industry and infrastructure of my economically valuable core provinces; this not only boosted my economy but allowed me to build and transport units faster. Once I had the economy to fill my urban core (and build a few new industrials in my rural provinces) I would invest in production facilities outside my core. By the late game I would have a core territory with massive economic output and the ability to assemble huge armies in very short time. Admiring the power of my core was just satisfying as watching my armies paint the map.
      In 1.5... there's none of that. Production buildings have no economic output, and because they don't need expensive level 1 industry, so there is no reason not to build them in captured regions. Instead of carefully considering whether I should invest in upgrading my core facilities to get the full economic potential out of them, or even build new facilities in my core, I can just spam production facilities in every urban area I conquer. I ran the math and industrial complexes barely make any sense even in core urban provinces; previously they could at least be justified by the decreased production time. In 1.0 if I captured a well developed area I treasured it because it let me build new units near the front without having to make the massive investment in industry and high level infrastructure/barracks/airfields; now... that treasured front-line production center can be anywhere.
      I suspect that this change was made not for the like of me, who originally found Supremacy 1914 because I wanted a free online version of Paradox games, but rather for the mass of mobile players who want something casual they can jump into. If so, I think that 1.5 is definitely the way to go. I can't say that I'll stop playing once 1.0 is thrown away, but I will certainly miss the building system.
    • In 1.5, it’s a good strategy to build a single type of building in a city. For example if you are a naval nation, you should have 1 city for barracks, 1 city for tanks, 1 for ordnance, 1 for planes, and 1 for navy. Otherwise, if I’m land locked or just have a small connection to the sea, I will have 1 barrack city, 1 tank city, 1 or dance city, and 2 plane cities. That’s how it seems best for me in 1.5. In 1.0, I agree with you. Start by building barracks and then infrastructure/air bases.
    • RiverWolf74 wrote:

      In 1.5, it’s a good strategy to build a single type of building in a city. For example if you are a naval nation, you should have 1 city for barracks, 1 city for tanks, 1 for ordnance, 1 for planes, and 1 for navy. Otherwise, if I’m land locked or just have a small connection to the sea, I will have 1 barrack city, 1 tank city, 1 or dance city, and 2 plane cities. That’s how it seems best for me in 1.5. In 1.0, I agree with you. Start by building barracks and then infrastructure/air bases.
      That's part of my point. You only ever build one type of building in each province. Once you've decided on which building this city has your only decision is whether to upgrade it or use the resources in building a new one. In 1.0, you have to decide whether you will increase resource production, increase manpower, decrease production time, increase possible unit level, increase movement speed, or increase embarkment speed. There is a massive removal of agency and choice in giving every building one purpose and giving every purpose one building.
    • eruth wrote:

      RiverWolf74 wrote:

      In 1.5, it’s a good strategy to build a single type of building in a city. For example if you are a naval nation, you should have 1 city for barracks, 1 city for tanks, 1 for ordnance, 1 for planes, and 1 for navy. Otherwise, if I’m land locked or just have a small connection to the sea, I will have 1 barrack city, 1 tank city, 1 or dance city, and 2 plane cities. That’s how it seems best for me in 1.5. In 1.0, I agree with you. Start by building barracks and then infrastructure/air bases.
      That's part of my point. You only ever build one type of building in each province. Once you've decided on which building this city has your only decision is whether to upgrade it or use the resources in building a new one. In 1.0, you have to decide whether you will increase resource production, increase manpower, decrease production time, increase possible unit level, increase movement speed, or increase embarkment speed. There is a massive removal of agency and choice in giving every building one purpose and giving every purpose one building.
      well, you sometimes have to build multiple buildings in one province, like barracks to make infantry, infrastructure to increase morale and gain unit speed, and also industries to increase resources and manpower.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by RiverWolf74 ().

    • RiverWolf74 wrote:

      eruth wrote:

      RiverWolf74 wrote:

      In 1.5, it’s a good strategy to build a single type of building in a city. For example if you are a naval nation, you should have 1 city for barracks, 1 city for tanks, 1 for ordnance, 1 for planes, and 1 for navy. Otherwise, if I’m land locked or just have a small connection to the sea, I will have 1 barrack city, 1 tank city, 1 or dance city, and 2 plane cities. That’s how it seems best for me in 1.5. In 1.0, I agree with you. Start by building barracks and then infrastructure/air bases.
      That's part of my point. You only ever build one type of building in each province. Once you've decided on which building this city has your only decision is whether to upgrade it or use the resources in building a new one. In 1.0, you have to decide whether you will increase resource production, increase manpower, decrease production time, increase possible unit level, increase movement speed, or increase embarkment speed. There is a massive removal of agency and choice in giving every building one purpose and giving every purpose one building.
      well, you sometimes have to build multiple buildings in one province, like barracks to make infantry, infrastructure to increase morale and gain unit speed, and also industries to increase resources and manpower.
      Maybe, but then it's just a simple min/max math problem instead of a strategic question. How long will the industry take to pay itself off, and is that worth it? (The answer will only ever be yes in core provinces since Industry has no effect on production speed anymore). Is the speed increase worth the cost of infrastructure (only ever yes in rural provinces), and is moral so bad that I need to raise it by spending resources (only going to be yes in the late game, so fairly rarely). In 1.0, most buildings have multiple different values (economic, production, transportation) that cannot be easily compared and so trying to figure out what to build is less of a min/max math operation and more of a strategic puzzle.
    • eruth wrote:

      RiverWolf74 wrote:

      eruth wrote:

      RiverWolf74 wrote:

      In 1.5, it’s a good strategy to build a single type of building in a city. For example if you are a naval nation, you should have 1 city for barracks, 1 city for tanks, 1 for ordnance, 1 for planes, and 1 for navy. Otherwise, if I’m land locked or just have a small connection to the sea, I will have 1 barrack city, 1 tank city, 1 or dance city, and 2 plane cities. That’s how it seems best for me in 1.5. In 1.0, I agree with you. Start by building barracks and then infrastructure/air bases.
      That's part of my point. You only ever build one type of building in each province. Once you've decided on which building this city has your only decision is whether to upgrade it or use the resources in building a new one. In 1.0, you have to decide whether you will increase resource production, increase manpower, decrease production time, increase possible unit level, increase movement speed, or increase embarkment speed. There is a massive removal of agency and choice in giving every building one purpose and giving every purpose one building.
      well, you sometimes have to build multiple buildings in one province, like barracks to make infantry, infrastructure to increase morale and gain unit speed, and also industries to increase resources and manpower.
      Maybe, but then it's just a simple min/max math problem instead of a strategic question. How long will the industry take to pay itself off, and is that worth it? (The answer will only ever be yes in core provinces since Industry has no effect on production speed anymore). Is the speed increase worth the cost of infrastructure (only ever yes in rural provinces), and is moral so bad that I need to raise it by spending resources (only going to be yes in the late game, so fairly rarely). In 1.0, most buildings have multiple different values (economic, production, transportation) that cannot be easily compared and so trying to figure out what to build is less of a min/max math operation and more of a strategic puzzle.

      eruth wrote:

      RiverWolf74 wrote:

      eruth wrote:

      RiverWolf74 wrote:

      In 1.5, it’s a good strategy to build a single type of building in a city. For example if you are a naval nation, you should have 1 city for barracks, 1 city for tanks, 1 for ordnance, 1 for planes, and 1 for navy. Otherwise, if I’m land locked or just have a small connection to the sea, I will have 1 barrack city, 1 tank city, 1 or dance city, and 2 plane cities. That’s how it seems best for me in 1.5. In 1.0, I agree with you. Start by building barracks and then infrastructure/air bases.
      That's part of my point. You only ever build one type of building in each province. Once you've decided on which building this city has your only decision is whether to upgrade it or use the resources in building a new one. In 1.0, you have to decide whether you will increase resource production, increase manpower, decrease production time, increase possible unit level, increase movement speed, or increase embarkment speed. There is a massive removal of agency and choice in giving every building one purpose and giving every purpose one building.
      well, you sometimes have to build multiple buildings in one province, like barracks to make infantry, infrastructure to increase morale and gain unit speed, and also industries to increase resources and manpower.
      Maybe, but then it's just a simple min/max math problem instead of a strategic question. How long will the industry take to pay itself off, and is that worth it? (The answer will only ever be yes in core provinces since Industry has no effect on production speed anymore). Is the speed increase worth the cost of infrastructure (only ever yes in rural provinces), and is moral so bad that I need to raise it by spending resources (only going to be yes in the late game, so fairly rarely). In 1.0, most buildings have multiple different values (economic, production, transportation) that cannot be easily compared and so trying to figure out what to build is less of a min/max math operation and more of a strategic puzzle.
      It is still a strategic question. Whi locations should you build high level building to produce the until faster? Should you build high level industries to increase manpower or resources? Sometimes if your core province gets captured, you need to recapture it and then build infrastructure or the production rate will be Due to low morale. The game is still very strategic, just in a different way.
    • There is some strategy in where you build high levels but it doesn't really matter as much. In 1.0 you had to choose between building near the front so your units could arrive quickly or building in your core where it was economically useful. You also had to consider whether you would use captured industrial complexes or build new ones in your core regions. In 1.5, it's really just a measure of how willing you are to risk them getting captured; since they have no secondary effects they function exactly the same in every urban province. There is no massive initial cost like with industrial complexes in 1.0 so it's not even like your choice means much; if you later end up not using that site, oh well, it wasn't all that expensive.
      Resource production is now just a very simple equation; how much will this boost my production and how long will that take to pay off? In 1.0 you also have to consider how the building will effect production, how it will effect logistics, and whether you want to pay a smaller investment for smaller gains (industry) or a larger investment for larger gains (infrastructure). A lot more strategic factors you have to consider.
    • eruth wrote:

      There is some strategy in where you build high levels but it doesn't really matter as much. In 1.0 you had to choose between building near the front so your units could arrive quickly or building in your core where it was economically useful. You also had to consider whether you would use captured industrial complexes or build new ones in your core regions. In 1.5, it's really just a measure of how willing you are to risk them getting captured; since they have no secondary effects they function exactly the same in every urban province. There is no massive initial cost like with industrial complexes in 1.0 so it's not even like your choice means much; if you later end up not using that site, oh well, it wasn't all that expensive.
      Resource production is now just a very simple equation; how much will this boost my production and how long will that take to pay off? In 1.0 you also have to consider how the building will effect production, how it will effect logistics, and whether you want to pay a smaller investment for smaller gains (industry) or a larger investment for larger gains (infrastructure). A lot more strategic factors you have to consider.
      In 1.0, I rarely build new industries except in resource provinces. I also usually already have all the buildings in my core provinces to max level to increase resource production, so I had to build new buildings and produce more units in the front lines. In 1.5, captured industries in non-core provinces do almost nothing, so you pretty much have to build industries in your provinces. I think it’s right that industries don’t cost as much in 1.5, since they don’t really help with production of units, only resource production. In 1.0, you do have to consider how the building will affect production, but in 1.5 you also have to consider which level you want to build the building too. Building all your buildings too a high level will increase production speeds, but you definitely won’t have enough resources.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by RiverWolf74 ().

    • RiverWolf74 wrote:

      In 1.0, I rarely build new industries except in resource provinces. I also usually already have all the buildings in my core provinces to max level to increase resource production, so I had to build new buildings and produce more units in the front lines. In 1.5, captured industries in non-core provinces do almost nothing, so you pretty much have to build industries in your provinces. I think it’s right that industries don’t cost as much in 1.5, since they don’t really help with production of units, only resource production. In 1.0, you do have to consider how the building will affect production, but in 1.5 you also have to consider which level you want to build the building too. Building all your buildings too a high level will increase production speeds, but you definitely won’t have enough resources.
      Yep. In 1.0 I build up industry and infrastructure across my core to help with economy (which has the side effect of giving me great production facilities), and I use captured industry to produce motorized infantry and aircraft, since barracks and airfields don't contribute to my economy and therefore should not take up space in my core. In 1.5 I don't have to make that choice; production facilities effect every single province the exact same way so I just build whatever production facility I need at the time anytime I have enough resource to put a production facility in a new province. There is never ANY reason to upgrade industry in captured provinces but not reason NOT to upgrade production facilities (other than risk of capture or lack of resources, but those constraints can apply to anything). I disagree with the 'not enough resources'; the more and better units you have the more and better provinces you have.
    • Thanks for the feedback. But you said it yourself: We probably won't reverse integral parts of the 1.5 design, because such a change would create ripple effects through all areas and warrant a complete redesign again, while I feel that we are already on a good track with 1.5.

      Personally I also disagree on this topic here. I think you described it yourself in your post, in 1.0 the first things you do ALWAYS is building Barracks, then Infrastructure, then maxing out ICs and Infrastructure and sprinkling in airfields and naval bases here and there if needed. Later ond new ICs. But every player played like that, it was the optimal choice and therefore is not really any strategic decision making. When it came to upgrading your provinces the bottleneck in 1.0 was time, because resources you had usually enough to fund the upgrades (exception being building new ICs). Therefore you also barely had to make a choice between upgrading buildings or producing units. Especially since all buildings had multiple effects you also barely could go wrong in your choices.

      I think 1.5 offers much more strategic choice right in the beginning, with the first choice being how much of each production building do you need and where do you place it. The next choice is if you want to upgrade these buildings or if you invest into economic buildings, or do you need any of the support buildings? Since each building has only 1-2 effects, there is a greater choice which building to pick for the effect you need. Since in 1.5 your bottleneck is not time anymore but resources, you have to make a decision every time you start a new production or construction. Do you really have the resources right now to afford this? Industry for example armortises after 5-6 days, so building it is a long term commitment but definitely worth it later on.

      Overall I feel like I am rethinking and questioning my build choices in 1.5 on a lot more occasions than in 1.0.
    • freezy wrote:

      Thanks for the feedback. But you said it yourself: We probably won't reverse integral parts of the 1.5 design, because such a change would create ripple effects through all areas and warrant a complete redesign again, while I feel that we are already on a good track with 1.5.

      Personally I also disagree on this topic here. I think you described it yourself in your post, in 1.0 the first things you do ALWAYS is building Barracks, then Infrastructure, then maxing out ICs and Infrastructure and sprinkling in airfields and naval bases here and there if needed. Later ond new ICs. But every player played like that, it was the optimal choice and therefore is not really any strategic decision making. When it came to upgrading your provinces the bottleneck in 1.0 was time, because resources you had usually enough to fund the upgrades (exception being building new ICs). Therefore you also barely had to make a choice between upgrading buildings or producing units. Especially since all buildings had multiple effects you also barely could go wrong in your choices.

      I think 1.5 offers much more strategic choice right in the beginning, with the first choice being how much of each production building do you need and where do you place it. The next choice is if you want to upgrade these buildings or if you invest into economic buildings, or do you need any of the support buildings? Since each building has only 1-2 effects, there is a greater choice which building to pick for the effect you need. Since in 1.5 your bottleneck is not time anymore but resources, you have to make a decision every time you start a new production or construction. Do you really have the resources right now to afford this? Industry for example armortises after 5-6 days, so building it is a long term commitment but definitely worth it later on.

      Overall I feel like I am rethinking and questioning my build choices in 1.5 on a lot more occasions than in 1.0.
      If that's how you play it then that's how you play it. I, however, gain a heck of a lot more enjoyment from building up my core into the economic and production center of the world, with every province full of industry and infrastructure by end-game, than from plopping production centers down fairly evenly across the world; in 1.5 my core is only special in that it produces a few more resources. I have no reason to upgrade my production centers more highly there than anywhere else, and since my philosophy is that conquering units generally repay themselves faster than buildings, I also haven't upgraded my resource production at all so the economic significance isn't even all that great. The loss of even a single core province in 1.0 is enormous throughout the game; from mid-game on in 1.5 it's barely worth anything more than any other city, and the rural provinces are worth even less than a non-core city.
    • Hm I think your opinion only stems from the fact that you refuse to build Industry in your core cities? And maybe that stems from the fact that in your current game round you have some easy enemies nearby that you could conquer? Maybe this changes when you play more challenging opponents?
      As I said, Industry armortises after roughly 6 days (which isnt slower than in CoW1.0 btw.), so in the long run you will definitely benefit from building them. And because of the 25% penalty for non-cores it only makes sense to build them in your core territory. That's why most players I saw so far (and I do it as well) max out Industries in all of their core territory. You really feel the effect of it once you upgrade to the last level. Maybe you should try it out in one of your rounds. In the end you will have the effect that you wished for: Making your provinces the industrial center of the world.

      I think the majority of players would disagree that losing core provinces barely has any effect at all. Especially the feedback for 1.5 so far was that it is harder to recover from core province losses than in 1.0, especially if you lose an urban (though personally I would say its probably roughtly the same difficulty).

      Rural core provinces are worth a lot in 1.5 in the late game because they produce relatively high amounts of manpower (those which dont produce other resources), and a lot of players would testify to you that manpower becomes a problem later on. So building Industries is already a good investment for the manpower improvement, since it doesn't cost manpower to build them. That way you can convert excess resources into manpower.

      So yeah to summarize my suggestion would be to try maxing out Industry in your cores in your next game round and compare how it plays out.
    • You say that 'it is not slower than in 1.0' but in 1.0 factories increased unit production capabilities so they repayed themselves even quicker by allowing more units. In 1.5 if I fear that I will get into a life or death match in fewer than 6 days, a constant possibility, it seems to make more sense (to me, at least) to invest in units or unit production than in long-term economic benefits. You also highlighted that it only makes sense to build them in the core; this is a large part of my point. It matters so much where you build industry that there is no situation in which you should build it outside of your core (whereas in 1.0 it often made sense to upgrade captured industry for production capabilities) but it does not matter at all where you build your production facilities. If you do decide to build industry it honestly makes almost more sense to then just not build production buildings in your core to allow you to use that time for industry instead. There are so many fewer things you have to take into consideration when deciding where to build buildings and this eliminates a major element of strategy. I'm trying to figure out some compromise that keeps 1.5's streamlined production buildings as well as the strategic considerations of 1.0, but not allowing production in rural provinces really just kills all of ideas. The only way I can think of that 1.5's building system improves the game is by making it more accessible to casual players; maybe I'm just an old stubborn Paradox Interactive fan, but I'mma fight to keep the strategy in CoW goshdarnnit
    • Maybe we should agree to disagree then? Because in your opinion the amount of choices was reduced, while in my opinion the amount of choices was increased. Seems we can't find a consensus on that.

      True, of course building ICs in 1.0 can also be worthwhile solely for the unit production.

      From what I saw so far from experienced players in 1.5 is that the majority of them is building Industry and thinks it is a worthwhile investment. Your opinion so far really sticks out in that regard. But it's actually nice that there can be different opinions and different approaches when or if something is worthwhile, because it means there is actually a choice. Building them shouldn't be a no-brainer, which they are in 1.0 because there it is the optimal way of playing :P
      Also maybe you really have to test it out, you may think differently about it once you did.

      It is indeed not optimal that it's not worth it to build Industries in non-core provinces, but it's also not worth it in 1.0 if we only look at resource development. It can be worth it for the unit prodution of course, but that is also true for the production buildings in 1.5.
      What I was refering to was that you said you want to feel like you are building up the industrial center of the world in your core provinces, and you can still get this feeling by maxing out your provinces with industries and other buildings. So this aspect was not lost.

      The whole discussions about this is theoretical though because I already made clear that we won't go back to the old building system. We think that the new system enables many more choices and strategies, and if anything we rather think it might become too complex, not that it is too shallow.I think at one point we can work on accessibility for new players by displaying the building effects directly in the construction menu, that should make it easier.
    • Firstly, i'd like to add something that I don't think has been mentioned which I feel is quite important, and that is how in 1.0 yes you can build infra or ICs, and it was initially something I did not like about 1.5 in that now we only have one building to increase our economy and not two. However, in 1.5 we also have infrastructure we can build which provides a moral boost which is super powerful. An extra 15 moral points is super beneficial. And yes it is true in 1.0 we could also build forts for this. But I often could not afford to build forts everywhere for the moral boost and thus only really did it in double rss provinces. But in 1.5 I am building lots of infra for the moral boost it provides, which I believe is super beneficial.

      Therefore I feel Ind and infra are the new buildings to build for rss generation. Ind will increase your production more directly, and infra will increase the moral which A) ensures no rebellions, and B) increases rss production through higher moral. Also you can notices that ind and infra together cost all the rss, making these two buildings quite connected really and also mean if you have excess food and goods, you build infra, like in 1.0 when you have excess oil you build infra (or at least what I do). Ind is now more powerful than infra whereas 1.0 they where somewhat equal... although i'd take a lvl 5 IC over a lvl 3 infra everyday as IC could produce troops and rss. Which is why I always priorities lvl 5 IC over a lvl 3 infra early game.

      So while at first glance I agree it seems there is less economic buildings, but infra being a more specific moral boost imo provides a new and interesting method to increase your economy - through moral improvement. Which in 1.0 at least for me was not really something I could do as I am pretty much always at a -25 moral due to wars, so my moral always sucked.

      I have been building ind and personally I really like it. I love the lvl 4 and lvl 5 upgrades for how they dramatically increase my production. If anything I miss last iteration when it was a 125% bonus (and costed more yes).



      Secondly, not building ind and only building troops is a valid strategy. IMO its not a great one if you face a skilled opponent and get into a long stalled war as then your economy cannot sustain itself. But if thats how you like to play 1.5 and 1.0 doesn't have much of a difference. Core land in both is vital and I often aim at sending some AC to take and damage my enemies core as it cripples them. But I find not building any ind or IC buildings in either game is not a successful strat. But if it works for you then awesome. One aspect I love about CoW is the vast different strategies players use.

      Hopefully this can provide assistance into different buildings for the economy in 1.5. I think it is a different approach but one that is actually better. I could never afford in 1.0 IC, infra and forts in my key rss provinces as it took too long, and cost too much to achieve :)
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