Air battles in v1.5

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    • I truly apologize Zilant. By what you stated here it seemed you hadn't tested the outcomes. Thank you for the informative posts. I will continue to apply the different techniques posted here and see what happens.





      [/quote] The only thing I don’t know, what’s the type of damage that outcomes from covering patrols to attacking airplanes. In 1.0 there was no matter, in 1.5 I haven’t tested it yet. From one hand, covering patrol are “defenders”, from the other - they are not target of attackers, so they may produce “attack” damage, why not...[/quote]
    • Cloudpop2 wrote:

      well elite fighters have 65 health each so 65 multiplied by 50 planes is 3250 total hitpoints.

      elite interceptors also do 25 damage and 25 multiplied by his 30 planes is 750 damage so your fighters definitely shouldn't have died that quickly.
      ? According to your calculations:
      He hadn’t 50 planes by 3250 HPs. He had 5*10 planes, means 5 stacks by 650 HPs each one.
      And damage from 2 covering/defending stacks was enough to kill each and every of attacking stacks because of defending mechanics of patrols or “splash” situation when full damage comes to each stack, as Freezy said. I see no bugs here.
    • ZILANT wrote:

      Cloudpop2 wrote:

      well elite fighters have 65 health each so 65 multiplied by 50 planes is 3250 total hitpoints.

      elite interceptors also do 25 damage and 25 multiplied by his 30 planes is 750 damage so your fighters definitely shouldn't have died that quickly.
      ? According to your calculations:He hadn’t 50 planes by 3250 HPs. He had 5*10 planes, means 5 stacks by 650 HPs each one.
      And damage from 2 covering/defending stacks was enough to kill each and every of attacking stacks because of defending mechanics of patrols or “splash” situation when full damage comes to each stack, as Freezy said. I see no bugs here
      he said that the enemy stack was also split into 3 stacks of 10 units. so he only could have attacked one of the enemy stacks. that means the enemy could only have done 25*10=250 damage.
    • Cloudpop2 wrote:

      ZILANT wrote:

      Cloudpop2 wrote:

      well elite fighters have 65 health each so 65 multiplied by 50 planes is 3250 total hitpoints.

      elite interceptors also do 25 damage and 25 multiplied by his 30 planes is 750 damage so your fighters definitely shouldn't have died that quickly.
      ? According to your calculations:He hadn’t 50 planes by 3250 HPs. He had 5*10 planes, means 5 stacks by 650 HPs each one.
      And damage from 2 covering/defending stacks was enough to kill each and every of attacking stacks because of defending mechanics of patrols or “splash” situation when full damage comes to each stack, as Freezy said. I see no bugs here
      he said that the enemy stack was also split into 3 stacks of 10 units. so he only could have attacked one of the enemy stacks. that means the enemy could only have done 25*10=250 damage.


      I never felt it was a bug. I think the outcome was within the parameters built into the new fight mechanics (or coefficients or values).

      I wanted to bring to the attention of the devs and anyone else interested that the changes they built into v1.5 aerial battles can lead to some extremely lopsided results. I perfectly understand the unintuitive aspects of 1.0 aerial battles and agree that it needed to be addressed. However the changes made for v1.5 may have made the situation even worse in the other direction.

      30 interceptors vs 50 interceptors in targeted attacks from both sides should not result in the 50 planes on one side all destroyed and the 30 planes on the other side barely scratched.

      The post was edited 3 times, last by Ruy Diaz de Bivar: typos ().

    • Cloudpop2 wrote:

      he said that the enemy stack was also split into 3 stacks of 10 units. so he only could have attacked one of the enemy stacks. that means the enemy could only have done 25*10=250 damage.
      No, because armies always attack all armies within a radius of 5km (splash damage), and receive damage back from all armies within a radius of 5km. Since attacking aircrafts strike second, it means that all 50 enemy planes applied their defense damage first every time one of the 10 planes attacked.


      Cloudpop2 wrote:

      well elite fighters have 65 health each so 65 multiplied by 50 planes is 3250 total hitpoints.

      elite interceptors also do 25 damage and 25 multiplied by his 30 planes is 750 damage so your fighters definitely shouldn't have died that quickly.
      He attacked with 5 stacks of 10, each receiving the defensive damage of all 50 planes (defensive damage of armies in the same location is combined and dealt out with every attack). 10 panasian interceptors only have a total health of 590. They also were damaged according to the report, I think I read 55%, so maybe 350 health.

      3x10 axis interceptors do a combined defensive damage of 480 (16 x 30), more than enough to kill the 350 health of each stack.

      Even without the random factor of +-20% it is totally expected that the planes die with the current combat mechanics. It is not a bug, just an oversight in how the combat was coded back then. For now we have to live with it and play accordingly.

      Ruy Diaz de Bivar wrote:

      I wanted to bring to the attention of the devs and anyone else interested that the changes they built into v1.5 aerial battles can lead to some extremely lopsided results. I perfectly understand the unintuitive aspects of 1.0 aerial battles and agree that it needed to be addressed. However the changes made for v1.5 may have made the situation even worse in the other direction.
      There were no changes in air battle mechanics in 1.5 though. The same behaviour regarding attacking airplanes striking second, splash damage being applied in a radius and defense damage of all armies within that radius being summed up are true in 1.0 as well. It could of course be easier to spot these mechanics now due to damaged units not dying immediately anymore in 1.5. But probably the same result would have happened in a similar situation in 1.0 as well. We even helped out attacking planes in 1.5 a bit by making defensive damage of planes only half as strong, for that reason.
    • Hello, I think the problem is that plane mechanics favour the defender. The way planes vs planes combat is designed is so the defender has the advantage. BUT, planes in 1.5 favour the attacker. I personally really don't like this new system as now there is no longer a best method for planes vs planes combat? Every other troops is either better in defence or attacking, and the mechanics make it so its clear what happens when something attacks or defends. But for 1.5 planes vs planes combat its almost an unknown. There is no inherent mechanic that makes LT (an offensive troop) mechanically better in defence, nor is there a mechanic that makes infantry (a defensive troop) mechanically better when attacking. The fact that planes are better in defence, but stat wise are better at attacking is I would say almost paradoxical and it makes it at least for me quite unenjoyable not knowing how to effectively fight with my planes.

      This was something that was in 1.0 combat and seems to have been removed (troops being better mechanically in defence). For instance, 1v1 1 LT vs 1 LT in 1.0, the defensive LT should win. 1.5 removed this for ground troops, but then implemented a system which made plane vs plane combat imo worse and more confusing.

      I would also have to say that this new system is less intuitive. Players see planes have better attacking stats, and yet planes don't always win when they attack? That to me is actually less intuitive compared to planes have equal attacking and defensive stats, and then the defender wins which is 1.0. <-- is said very simply as it can be quite obvious why the defender will win in 1.0 as they always defend, so 10x10 stacks attack 10x10 stacks, the attacker has to fight 100 planes whereas each round the defending planes fight lots of 10vs100s. To me that is quite intuitive why planes win in defensive fights, before you take into the mechanics that favour the defender.

      Now, the idea that planes fight better when attacking makes sense, initially I said months ago I liked this concept, but feared fights would be tough as patrolling fights favour the defender, DA attacks favour the defender. but planes themselves are better at attacking. So planes vs planes fights will be quite strange and ultimately problematic. The fact it is not a bug, but expected to me is the problem. Attacking planes should beat defending ones when the stats say the attacking is stronger. I think its that simple, otherwise its very confusing and less intuitive, unless someone can explain the exact scenario when defending will result in a victory, and when attacking will. Otherwise it is more of a guessing game than in 1.0, and thus less intuitive for players.

      I think either planes stats should become even again so it is clear who will win in a fight, or the mechanics are changed so attacker wins in fights (so their stats match up). I personally do not like how there isn't a clear known winner in battles. I like to play as efficiently, so a mechanic that means its almost a guess who will win in a fight I don't like. When a LT attacks, I know how it will behave, when an infantry defends I know what will happen. When a plane fights another plane, its quite unknown as the mechanics favour the defender, but planes themselves favour the attacker.


      Thanks, I would like to apologies for the more negative tone of this post. But for this scenario I don't really see a positive for this change :)
      Torpedo28000
      Game Operator
      EN Support Team | Bytro Labs Gmbh

      The post was edited 4 times, last by Torpedo28000 ().

    • Let me see if I got this right then.

      Rule of thumb.

      If I want to set up a defensive air cap preferably multiple stacks of 10 or less fighters on patrol is still the best solution.

      If an enemy attacks my patrol with their own air it is best to remain on patrol (defense) and take the hit.

      If I want to use my fighters offensively against enemy fighters in multiple stacks on patrol the best attack would be one stack of all the planes I choose to attack with.(Not a great option either I know).

      If the enemy defenders are in one large stack on patrol keep in mind they may split up into multiple patrolling stacks or switch to a targeted attack or the patrol timer might click off an attack while I'm in range and cause some additional damage.

      And always take into account that each stack has it's own hit point values, defenders get the first strike and damaged attacking stacks can be wiped out entirely if the cumulative effect of ALL the defenders within 5km exceed the attackers individual hit point value with each subsequent attacking stack getting it's own results versus all of the defending stacks added together. (wipe out).

      Damaged stacks put you at a severe disadvantage versus undamaged stacks. Try to build fresh stacks separate from the damaged planes. Don't add fresh planes to a damaged stack (As a rule of thumb. There may be some exceptions).
      As in the case described in the OP those 50 damaged PanA interceptors were obviously no match for 30 fresh Axis interceptors and the decision to DA the attacking Axis planes was by far the worst choice to make.
    • Torpedo28000 wrote:

      now there is no longer a best method for planes vs planes combat
      now there IS a best method for this combat. Nothing changes with 1.0 mechanics, except only one thing.

      But let’s see how general air fight is happening now in 1.0. Each side has a lot of planes by 5 or 6 fighters (or together with TBs, it’s not t he point now), let it be equal quantity. Both sides starts to patrol near each other. And now the most “interesting“ part. By missing your attack in timer player can avoid damage from defence, that according to mechanics will be higher than attack damage. In ru-server this action is called «пролёт» (word2word translate is something like “fly by”).
      So, because of such “fly by”s air fight is awful.

      Now in 1.5 X2 coefficient makes this tactics of “fly by”s not so effective. All you need is to fly in patrols and because of attack oriented stats, this is more profitable. Missing attack timer is not effective.

      ! And this is the optimal method of air battle, as I see it. !

      (Using target attacks of fighters in late game because of defensive covering mechanics is just stupid, every aviator knows this).
    • Torpedo28000 wrote:

      Hello, I think the problem is that plane mechanics favour the defender. The way planes vs planes combat is designed is so the defender has the advantage. BUT, planes in 1.5 favour the attacker. I personally really don't like this new system as now there is no longer a best method for planes vs planes combat? Every other troops is either better in defence or attacking, and the mechanics make it so its clear what happens when something attacks or defends. But for 1.5 planes vs planes combat its almost an unknown. There is no inherent mechanic that makes LT (an offensive troop) mechanically better in defence, nor is there a mechanic that makes infantry (a defensive troop) mechanically better when attacking. The fact that planes are better in defence, but stat wise are better at attacking is I would say almost paradoxical and it makes it at least for me quite unenjoyable not knowing how to effectively fight with my planes.

      This was something that was in 1.0 combat and seems to have been removed (troops being better mechanically in defence). For instance, 1v1 1 LT vs 1 LT in 1.0, the defensive LT should win. 1.5 removed this for ground troops, but then implemented a system which made plane vs plane combat imo worse and more confusing.

      I would also have to say that this new system is less intuitive.
      We didnt implement any new systems regarding how defensive or offensive damage is working in 1.5 though. We only changed the balancing. You are right that the mechanics are confusing since the balancing is contradicting the mechanics now in certain situations. As I said in this thread we are looking forward to fixing the mechanics at some point in the future. We won't change the balance of planes back to their 1.0 values though, because we wanted to make these mechanical "exploits" deliberately less effective so that players not knowing them are not penalized as harshly.


      Basic rule of thumb how to use airplanes in 1.5: When it's only 1 plane army on either side, attacking is more effective, unless you are at such low health that the enemy defensive tick would kill you outright. When both sides are fighting with multiple plane stacks in the same location, avoiding attack and using defense is better.