Air battles in v1.5

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    • Air battles in v1.5

      Game #3335298 I just lost 50 elite PanA interceptors from an attack by 30 Axis equal level fighters. The Axis fighters lost 0 planes and were barely scratched.

      Granted my planes were averaging 70 % health but come on he wiped out 5 entire squadrons with 30 planes? One time before that my planes patrolling were annihilated so this time I saw them coming and switched to direct attack and the results were even worse.

      I have no idea how to combat this inequity. Once I use my fighters and they drop below a certain percentage they are as good as dead. And no amount of daychange healing is helping. Why was the attack/defend rating changed so drastically? It was 1:1 and now it's 2:1.

    • I had 5 stacks of 10 each. He had 3 stacks of 10. I get the top 10 per stack deal. My 5 stacks of ten did no damage at all. I said I switched to attack but his interceptors attacked 1st. I don't even care if his smaller squadron got the best of my larger one. I'm talking about I lost every single plane destroyed and his planes received 0 zero damage.

      I also am aware PanA planes are weak and Axis planes have buffed strength and attack ratings but that is totally ridiculous.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Ruy Diaz de Bivar ().

    • 50 elite planes gone in flash!

      10:30 pm The 29th Fighter Squadron (Sumatra) lost 10 Interceptor over Confresa.
      10:30 pm The 79th Fighter Squadron (Sumatra) lost 10 Interceptor over Marabá.
      10:30 pm The 48th Fighter Squadron (Sumatra) lost 10 Interceptor over Confresa.
      10:30 pm The 71st Fighter Squadron (Sumatra) lost 10 Interceptor over Confresa.
      10:30 pm The 84th Fighter Squadron (Sumatra) lost 10 Interceptor over Confresa.

      I said elite planes That's level 7.
      4 of the stacks were between 55 and 60% and 1 stack was close to 100%. They were PanA planes.

      3 stacks of Axis planes attacked when all my 5 stacks were in a tight patrol pattern. I saw it coming and based upon my last experience with remaining on patrol and taking the attack in a much earlier dogfight where I lost all my other planes I decided to order my planes to all attack the 30 incoming. Result: I lost every single plane in one round and the Axis planes were completely, I mean completely unharmed!

      I seriously do not think this is the result the devs were shooting for. If it is the case it's just horrible.

    • My planes were on patrol. 5 stacks of 10 planes each in tight formation. I saw 30 Axis planes in 3 stacks of 10 each in close formation heading in to make a direct attack on my planes. All three stacks were attacking the same 10 planes in one of my stacks.

      I ordered all 5 of my stacks to directly attack one of the 3 incoming stacks of planes. It was hard to determine which side got the first strike, but I assume the Axis planes did.

      End result all fifty of my planes destroyed and zero damage to any of the Axis planes as the post above illustrates from a copy of the WH report.

    • Most likely the result is valid, if we combine the following facts:
      • your planes were already damaged
      • his planes had better values due to the doctrine choice
      • attacking aircrafts always strike second and receive damage beforehand (and if killed wont deal damage at all)
      • a chance factor of +-20%
      • the fact that multiple armies in the same location all defend together with individual stack limits instead of a combined limit, when one of the armies is attacked (due to how splash damage is calculated)


      Probably you would not have lost all planes if you kept the stack of 30 together, or if you let him attack your 5x10 stacks. The same could have happened in CoW1.0 because the splash damage calculation and defenders advantage for multiple split stacks is still the same, plus in 1.0 defending stats are even on par with attacking stats.

      I know the result was quite outrageous from your perspective (sorry :( ) and it's also not really intended game design that it works this way, but it is the status quo of how our combat system works. Changing this is very time consuming and error prone. Still we are hopeful that we can tweak and improve this in the future so that cases like this wont happen anymore.

    • freezy wrote:

      Most likely the result is valid, if we combine the following facts:
      • your planes were already damaged
      • his planes had better values due to the doctrine choice
      • attacking aircrafts always strike second and receive damage beforehand (and if killed wont deal damage at all)
      • a chance factor of +-20%
      • the fact that multiple armies in the same location all defend together with individual stack limits instead of a combined limit, when one of the armies is attacked (due to how splash damage is calculated)


      Probably you would not have lost all planes if you kept the stack of 30 together, or if you let him attack your 3x10 stacks. The same could have happened in CoW1.0 because the splash damage calculation and defenders advantage for multiple split stacks is still the same, plus in 1.0 defending stats are even on par with attacking stats.

      I know the result was quite outrageous from your perspective (sorry :( ) and it's also not really intended game design that it works this way, but it is the status quo of how our combat system works. Changing this is very time consuming and error prone. Still we are hopeful that we can tweak and improve this in the future so that cases like this wont happen anymore.


      Thanks for the reply. I can accept that the results were within the parameters and not some bug or glitch. But for the record I had fifty planes not thirty and I lost all of them in one exchange. The attacker had thirty. I was attacked before with more even numbers and did remain on patrol and those results were almost as bad. I understand how it works now I guess but some tweaks would be better otherwise the damaged stacks are as good as dead at 55% when it comes to dogfighting fresh planes.

    • freezy wrote:


      • attacking aircrafts always strike second and receive damage beforehand (and if killed wont deal damage at all)

      And how to understand in a COUNTER air battle - who will hit the first and who - the second ???
      Альянс Devastators.

      Победитель 1-го чемпионата мира среди альянсов 2018-19 гг.
      Серебряный призер 2-го чемпионата мира среди альянсов 2019-20 гг.

    • freezy wrote:



      • attacking aircrafts always strike second and receive damage beforehand (and if killed wont deal damage at all)

      Seems, this thing happened.
      You targeted him first and defending damage killed your planes. No matter how many stacks was there.

      when you see enemy airplanes that are targeting yours, that are in multiply patrol - NEVER use target attack before his attack. If you would stay in patrol and he attacked - the same story would happen with his planes. 0 zero to damage to you and -3*10 planes of your enemy.

    • Alexgru wrote:

      freezy wrote:


      • attacking aircrafts always strike second and receive damage beforehand (and if killed wont deal damage at all)

      And how to understand in a COUNTER air battle - who will hit the first and who - the second ???
      exactly.
      In this case - especially if the axis player didn’t control his fighters and as topic starter said that he flied in direction of enemy to meet him - counter (timer) of axis had more seconds.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by ZILANT ().

    • ZILANT wrote:

      freezy wrote:



      • attacking aircrafts always strike second and receive damage beforehand (and if killed wont deal damage at all)

      Seems, this thing happened.
      You targeted him first and defending damage killed your planes. No matter how many stacks was there.

      when you see enemy airplanes that are targeting yours, that are in multiply patrol - NEVER use target attack before his attack. If you would stay in patrol and he attacked - the same story would happen with his planes. 0 zero to damage to you and -3*10 planes of your enemy.


      In 1.5 the attackers deal 2x more damage than defenders so remaining on patrol isn't a good option either. Next time I guess I'll just run away with 50 planes. I think the problem is that when your entire stack has reduced health it is as good as dead against fresh full health planes the way that the new fight mechanics work.

    • Ruy Diaz de Bivar wrote:

      In 1.5 the attackers deal 2x more damage than defenders so remaining on patrol isn't a good option either.
      According to Freezy's message, your patrol will be the first to do damage. It seems to me that 50 planes even with 55% health will hit very well ... It would be nice to check this ...)
      Альянс Devastators.

      Победитель 1-го чемпионата мира среди альянсов 2018-19 гг.
      Серебряный призер 2-го чемпионата мира среди альянсов 2019-20 гг.

    • Ruy Diaz de Bivar wrote:

      ZILANT wrote:

      freezy wrote:


      • attacking aircrafts always strike second and receive damage beforehand (and if killed wont deal damage at all)

      Seems, this thing happened.You targeted him first and defending damage killed your planes. No matter how many stacks was there.

      when you see enemy airplanes that are targeting yours, that are in multiply patrol - NEVER use target attack before his attack. If you would stay in patrol and he attacked - the same story would happen with his planes. 0 zero to damage to you and -3*10 planes of your enemy.
      In 1.5 the attackers deal 2x more damage than defenders so remaining on patrol isn't a good option either. Next time I guess I'll just run away with 50 planes. I think the problem is that when your entire stack has reduced health it is as good as dead against fresh full health planes the way that the new fight mechanics work.
      you didn’t the get the point. There is nothing new in air mechanics, except changes of coefficient. But your example shows that it brings no difference for such situations.
      Again, what’s happening, when 5 stacks by 10 are patrolling, covering each other:
      If any number of planes will make target attack to anyone of this 5 stacks, then other 4 patrolling stacks by 10 will produce damage to these attackers FIRST. Only after this, survived planes (if there are any survived) will produce their damage to their target.
      The only thing I don’t know, what’s the type of damage that outcomes from covering patrols to attacking airplanes. In 1.0 there was no matter, in 1.5 I haven’t tested it yet. From one hand, covering patrol are “defenders”, from the other - they are not target of attackers, so they may produce “attack” damage, why not...

      The post was edited 1 time, last by ZILANT ().

    • Ruy Diaz de Bivar wrote:

      In 1.5 the attackers deal 2x more damage than defenders so remaining on patrol isn't a good option either. Next time I guess I'll just run away with 50 planes. I think the problem is that when your entire stack has reduced health it is as good as dead against fresh full health planes the way that the new fight mechanics work.
      Yep it's a tough situation where its hard to figure out beforehand which course of action is better. Usually the more enemy armies cover the same location, the better it is to avoid attacking them first, due to how splash damage and multi-army-damage is calculated for defending armies. The same goes for cases where your planes are already pretty damaged and wouldnt survive the first hit. But if you only fight against single armies with planes in good condition, then attacking them is the better choice due to airplanes having 2x better attacking stats. We gave planes better attacking stats in 1.5 exactly for this reason, to counter-act this unintuitive defender's advantage in air fights at least a bit.
      As I said, we may be able to tweak and fix this at some point in the future (no ETA on this though). Probably removing this delayed strike from attacking airplanes should already solve some of this.

      Alexgru wrote:

      And how to understand in a COUNTER air battle - who will hit the first and who - the second ???
      Well the plane which attacks first will hit second, the plan which defends will hit first. If both attack each other at the same time, it is rather random which hits first or might happen simultaneously.

    • ZILANT wrote:

      Ruy Diaz de Bivar wrote:

      ZILANT wrote:

      freezy wrote:


      • attacking aircrafts always strike second and receive damage beforehand (and if killed wont deal damage at all)

      Seems, this thing happened.You targeted him first and defending damage killed your planes. No matter how many stacks was there.

      when you see enemy airplanes that are targeting yours, that are in multiply patrol - NEVER use target attack before his attack. If you would stay in patrol and he attacked - the same story would happen with his planes. 0 zero to damage to you and -3*10 planes of your enemy.
      In 1.5 the attackers deal 2x more damage than defenders so remaining on patrol isn't a good option either. Next time I guess I'll just run away with 50 planes. I think the problem is that when your entire stack has reduced health it is as good as dead against fresh full health planes the way that the new fight mechanics work.
      you didn’t the get the point. There is nothing new in air mechanics, except changes of coefficient. But your example shows that it brings no difference for such situations.
      Again, what’s happening, when 5 stacks by 10 are patrolling, covering each other:
      If any number of planes will make target attack to anyone of this 5 stacks, then other 4 patrolling stacks by 10 will produce damage to these attackers FIRST. Only after this, survived planes (if there are any survived) will produce their damage to their target.
      The only thing I don’t know, what’s the type of damage that outcomes from covering patrols to attacking airplanes. In 1.0 there was no matter, in 1.5 I haven’t tested it yet. From one hand, covering patrol are “defenders”, from the other - they are not target of attackers, so they may produce “attack” damage, why not...


      No I got your point ok. I have tested 1.5 so I know what I saw. Army stacks take damage evenly in 1.5 and when the whole stack drops below 50% you start losing units. And you lose a lot very fast if the attackers are full strength and maximized to optimal attack efficiency. So even patrolling and even with splash damage the full health attackers will not likely lose anything on the first round from weak defensive fire they then get their full strength attack and poof all your damaged planes are now gone. This is especially true if the attackers are superior Axis interceptors.

      My first test was leave my weaker planes on patrol in stacks of 10 and that didn't come out too well. My second encounter I saw another flight coming at me so this time I ordered a targeted counter attack and the results were even far worse.

      My advice: Send damaged planes back to home or use them for ground assaults only and always have at least 1 better yet 2 10 stacks of fighters at full health to go out and take down damaged enemy planes using targeted attacks. You should get in a few rounds of 1.5 try it yourself. It is very different from what I know about fighting in 1.0.