Research and Upgrades in 1.5

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    • Research and Upgrades in 1.5

      I really like CoW, it's one of the best browser games ever made, and it puts a lot of console+PC games to shame.

      Transitioning to 1.5 maps has been a challenge for me. There are a lot of minor annoyances, some nice twists (unit bonuses per doctrine), but the biggest differences are related to unit research and upgrades.

      To put it bluntly, the new system is full of traps and frustrations that make the game less enjoyable.

      1. Rares are no longer rare. They produce at the same rate as other resources. They don't have a special role in research. Rares are just another resource now, and it makes me question why they exist.
      2. Research requires all resources. That should not be. In 1.0 the decision to conquer+improve rare producing provinces is a big part of the game, as it allows the player to emphasize or de-emphasize research. Now that aspect of strategy is gone. Building and research needs should not compete for the same bulk resources like Goods and Iron and Oil.
      3. Why do we even have so many resource types? If they are all more or less the same, just combine them into Money and be done with it.
      4. Research is now a trap, like Barracks+Militia used to be a trap for new players who get stuck when their countries choke due to lack of food. Except now the player pays for research and then chokes not being able to build or upgrade anything. Because the research scientists used up all the wood, paper, brick, and steel? Seriously?
      5. Upgrades take time and resources, but upgrades can happen anywhere. That makes no sense. If upgrading is an "action" then it should happen in an industrial zone capable of handling that kind of equipment. Upgrading in the middle of the ocean or in the tundra makes no sense.
      6. Upgrades take resources, which is difficult to plan for. Should I even bother researching a unit? In 1.0, it was possible to see the total cost (in money, food, rares) and make a decision. Now, the cost is hidden.
      7. Upgrade as an action is onerous and annoying. I have to find all the units that need an upgrade, manually click them, this splits my armies, and now there is an extra 1 hour timer to wait for. Afterward, I have to re-combine my armies, maybe bring them back if part of the army kept walking. None of this is fun. Actions that are not fun don't belong in a game.
      8. The 1.0 mechanism of "research and upgrade" is superior, because it's easier and more fun. If you want to make it costlier to research-and-upgrade a unit when the player has lots of those units, then simply increase the cost! No need to create two separate actions and complicate the interface.

      Did I mention that I hate :wallbash the new research and upgrade mechanisms?
      It's more work and added frustration without adding anything enjoyable to the gaming experience.
    • Thanks for the feedback!

      There is not much we can do about it though as we won't return to the CoW1.0 formula. The resource distribution and upgrading system has been refined over the last couple of months together with the community and the current version is already a nice compromise of different ideas. All of these talking points have been discussed at length in the respective news threads so I will refrain of discussing this in detail now since it will just be a repeat of all the arguments that were made in the past. Other players can of course feel free to chime in and discuss each point with you.

      In the end you have to do more choices in 1.5 and have less decisions which are no-brainers, especially regarding the question when to invest your resources in what. We want to keep it like that. It is of course a sad reality that we cannot please everyone and there will always be players who don't like certain aspects. We will keep it in mind where possible.

      I hope you will get used to the new way.
    • Thanks for your response. I don't think the new way works for me.

      9. There is an imbalance between resource production rate and build rate. It's another thing disrupting the flow of the game. In the 1.0 game, it's possible to keep a steady fraction of cities producing units, while the rest just produce resources. Now 1 factory can suck your whole economy dry in half a day.
      10. One of the most challenging and most *interesting* aspects of 1.0 is the IC. It's impractical to rebuild once destroyed, which adds a layer of decision making. Should I take this, knowing I might lose it, retake it, and end up with a pile of rubble? Should I rush to take that area to prevent someone else from taking it first? With 1.5 it doesn't mater. There is no finality. It doesn't matter.
      11. What's with the production times? Why does it take 8 times longer to produce SP Arty than a regular Arty? If you don't want us to build SP Arty until later, create specific build requirements. Document them. Make them logical and easy to understand.
      12. What's with the early aircraft carriers? Another way for new players to get trapped into making bad decisions.

      So many changes that look like they were done on purpose, but making the game less accessible to new players *and* less enjoyable to experienced CoW fans.

      All you have to do is add Doctrines to 1.0 and it would make the game more interesting and more fun without destroying the essence of what it is.
      • By contrary I think the game is more strategic in the production and resources matters. Are you doing the exact same thing that you usually do in 1.0?, well forget what you learn, this version requiere a careful planning on production and resources distribution.

      Also research and upgrade it's more strategic. should I research the next lvl of a unit if I don't have the buildings or resources needed? You don't have to research always that's the idea. Being a strategic decision.

      Strategy it's not just combat.
      "Si crees que esto tendrá un final feliz, es que no has estado prestando atención"
    • I don't have a strong opinion on your issues with rare materials or the resource model in general. It seems to work ok, troops require different resources and what you plan to build/resource heavily influences your economic and expansion strategy.

      I don't think research is a trap and frankly don't think any strategic option is a trap. When you click the start research button, or any other production, you know it's going to take resources and time. Will new players mistakenly spend all their resources on research in the early game? Sure, but they shouldn't do it more than once.

      z00mz00m wrote:

      5. Upgrades take time and resources, but upgrades can happen anywhere. That makes no sense. If upgrading is an "action" then it should happen in an industrial zone capable of handling that kind of equipment. Upgrading in the middle of the ocean or in the tundra makes no sense.
      I somewhat agree with this point. I also find it odd that I can upgrade anywhere. I think upgrades should be performed in a province with the appropriate production facility for the type. I think they should also add the ability to reinforce a unit along the same lines where it just restores the unit to full health. Upgrade costs would need to be reduced however because the investment in time is much greater and the utility is greatly diminished (now I have to take my units back to a production facility instead of upgrading on the front line).

      Regarding points 6-8, the upgrade cost is known (1/2 production cost or 2/5 for allies) you can easily calculate upgrade costs yourself. You can also just hit the upgrade button with the army selected and it will tell you the total cost to upgrade (or you can split and do the same thing for individuals), though I admit that doesn't help with planning ahead.

      Do you find it fun to get up in the middle of the night to start a research task? Do you find it fun to jiggle your interceptors every 15 minutes? The strategy is what makes the game fun and the new upgrade system gives you more strategic options. It's not just about making it more expensive, you also have the option of NOT UPGRADING which you did not have in 1.0. Was it awesome how I could pay a small resource cost and all my units would magically get new equipment wherever they were? Sure, but was it remotely realistic? It made the game less difficult, perhaps a little less work, but the strategy was a no-brainer.