Stealth/De-stealth -- CoW 1.5 Release 2020-10-20

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    • Stealth/De-stealth -- CoW 1.5 Release 2020-10-20

      I want to talk about the stealth and de-stealth mechanisms for land units. I wonder why nobody seems to have complained about it.

      Stealth and de-stealth capabilities have been added to a number of land units. Units with those capabilities see their strategic significance greatly increased as a result. Nowadays, I have been forced to build a lot more Armored cars and motorized infantries to counter enemy stealth units. Interceptors won't do because they need airports and they can't follow my armies as they move.

      There is a big difference between a player's choosing to adopt a strategy v.s. their being forced into one. The former involves strategic planning and rewards the ingenuity of the player. It is also responsive to changes in play-style. The latter however is plain dumb.

      I feel that some choices have been taken away from the players, and the game loses some of its strategic depths with the stealth/de-stealth update. Units with stealth or de-stealth capabilities have been singled out as worthy of special attention while the rest of the unit types pale in comparison.

      My recommendation would be to reduce the utility or functionality of stealth/de-stealth. In addition to making them detectable when moving (in hostile or friendly territory), for instance, we can reduce the detectability range for stealth units instead of making them disappear completely. Or, we might introduce a detection range for stealth units, say, a medium tank with normal view range of 70km can only detect stealthy units within, say, 15km (for AC maybe longer, like, 25km). If I am a commander of militia, I want to know if I am spotted and who's spotting me. My recommendation applies to submarines too, as naval battle also feel profoundly imbalanced, which is NOT helped (possibly made worse) by bestowing de-stealth capability to Destroyers. Especially since destroyers have very long de-stealth range which can then be used by battleships.

      The post was edited 5 times, last by Weids ().

    • Nice ideas, but with current mechanics not possible. Might be a possibility at some point in the future when we invest dev time into it.

      The other units which don't have this feature still have merit simply due to the rock-paper-scissors balancing approach. Stealth or scout units are nice but they do not beat all other units, so one still does need the other units to play effectively.

      If the community is of the opinion that the stealth or scout abilities give too great of a value to units we can balance this by making them more expensive. But as you said not much feedback in that direction yet. Will keep an eye on it.
    • freezy wrote:

      Nice ideas, but with current mechanics not possible. Might be a possibility at some point in the future when we invest dev time into it.

      The other units which don't have this feature still have merit simply due to the rock-paper-scissors balancing approach. Stealth or scout units are nice but they do not beat all other units, so one still does need the other units to play effectively.

      If the community is of the opinion that the stealth or scout abilities give too great of a value to units we can balance this by making them more expensive. But as you said not much feedback in that direction yet. Will keep an eye on it.


      Unfortunately, you are not getting my points. I am not suggesting that the current revision of stealth and scout abilities are imbalanced. Like you said, the rock-paper (no scissors) balancing approach to stealth and scout abilities helps to preserve balance between the two. Stealth is the "rock", which is countered by scout -- the "paper", and "rock" is good against the majority. There are no obvious scissors. Remember that our game already has a rock-paper-scissors balancing of units as the foundation. We are building another layer on top of that. We introduced stealth, which is a very important feature and it counters every (land) unit without scout (1). At the same time, the scout ability is introduced. These scout units now suddenly carry so much weight. They become the standard bearers against the tyranny of stealth-capable units. Have we given enough thoughts about the vanilla units left out of this update?

      My worry is that units which have neither stealth nor scout have been increasingly pushed to the side. Given how strategically significant the stealth ability is, I worry that our game is becoming increasingly shallow.

      Footnote:
      (1) Think about the Militia + Anti-tank combo. They are good defending against infantries and armored (light and heavy), and Artilleries can't spot them.

      The post was edited 10 times, last by Weids ().

    • Personally I think land stealth units are a poor game mechanic and have no real correlation with reality and should be removed. The only true stealth unit is the submarine with its ability to submerge. Early war units should not be able to detect a sub (just as in 1.0) and perhaps higher level DD's could introduce this capability but only at very short range.

      As you say, stealth units will become the unit of choice for many players especially given that stealth land units cannot be patrol attacked by planes even when spotted unless the plane is stacked with an Int. All in all a poor game mechanic that has little reflection in reality (most units would scout out terrain in front of their advance before contact and find militia, TDs or commandos there to oppose them) (but I guess CoW is moving more and more away from attempting any reflection of reality and is becoming an arcade game (witness that fact it takes about 4 times as long to bulldoze an airstrip than make an entire aircraft factory - talk about sacrificing any attempt at reality for the sake of game play))
    • RogodeterSnowl wrote:

      Personally I think land stealth units are a poor game mechanic and have no real correlation with reality and should be removed. The only true stealth unit is the submarine with its ability to submerge. Early war units should not be able to detect a sub (just as in 1.0) and perhaps higher level DD's could introduce this capability but only at very short range.

      As you say, stealth units will become the unit of choice for many players especially given that stealth land units cannot be patrol attacked by planes even when spotted unless the plane is stacked with an Int. All in all a poor game mechanic that has little reflection in reality (most units would scout out terrain in front of their advance before contact and find militia, TDs or commandos there to oppose them) (but I guess CoW is moving more and more away from attempting any reflection of reality and is becoming an arcade game (witness that fact it takes about 4 times as long to bulldoze an airstrip than make an entire aircraft factory - talk about sacrificing any attempt at reality for the sake of game play))
      well if we move more and more into realistic mecanics we shoulndnt be able to see the enemy army composition in the first place or even know where he is until we sucesufully scout them, just remember how different is know the enemy location from a soldier perspective and from a comander. in real life scout units are always present for a reason.

      now stealth capabilities in cow obviously arent realistic but in anycase is a good way to represent how those special units like comandos or partizan are hard to detect for real commanders, they arent invisible but they were hard to detect for armies, for example the british commandos or the yugoslavian partizans who succesufuly avoid detection from german efforts, the best example of how these stealth capabilities are something real in war was the vietnam war.

      now for a gameplay perspective its a great way to add variety to the game, not just spam more units, set traps, surprise the enemy, outmanouber them, etc.
      "Si crees que esto tendrá un final feliz, es que no has estado prestando atención"
    • RogodeterSnowl wrote:

      Personally I think land stealth units are a poor game mechanic and have no real correlation with reality and should be removed.

      A definitely agree with the "poor game mechanic" part.

      Danieliyoverde123 wrote:

      1. well if we move more and more into realistic mecanics we shoulndnt be able to see the enemy army composition in the first place or even know where he is until we sucesufully scout them.


      2. now stealth capabilities in cow obviously arent realistic but in anycase is a good way to represent how those special units like comandos or partizan are hard to detect for real commanders, they arent invisible but they were hard to detect for armies, for example the british commandos or the yugoslavian partizans who succesufuly avoid detection from german efforts, the best example of how these stealth capabilities are something real in war was the vietnam war.


      3. now for a gameplay perspective its a great way to add variety to the game


      1. Do we have dedecated scouts in this game? No. Each brigade (represented by units) run their own scouts. An infantry brigade has its own scouting platoon. That's why each unit in this game can spot enemies and has viewing range and true-sight range.

      2. Just look at how arbitrary scouting units in this game are chosen. Armored car, motorized infantry just to name a few. What's so special about these units historically? Why do they have scouts but mechanized infantries don't? How is this a "good way to represent reality"?

      3. I think it is a horrible way.

      The post was edited 11 times, last by Weids ().

    • Weids wrote:




      1.Do we have dedecated scouts in this game? No. Each brigade (represented by units) run their own scouts. An infantry brigade has its own scouting platoon. That's why each unit in this game can spot enemies and has viewing range and true-sight range.


      2.Just look at how arbitrary scouting units in this game are chosen. Armored car, motorized infantry just to name a few. What's so special about these units historically? Why do they have scouts but mechanized infantries don't? How is this a "good way to represent reality"?


      3.I think it is a horrible way.
      1. its supposed that armored cars and motorized infantry are the dedicated scout units, now its true that every units have their own scout unit but if every unit have the capability of spot the stealth units, its better just eliminate this mechanic.

      2. its supposed armored cars were the main scout weapon on ground in ww2, also jeeps, and motorized infantry are exactly this. now respect about mech infantry, again, if all units have scout capabilities stealth mecanics simple doesnt have any sense.

      3. personal preferences. but you cant deny that the game have more valid options to choose, now i can outsmart my enemy instead of just have more firepower.
      "Si crees que esto tendrá un final feliz, es que no has estado prestando atención"
    • Danieliyoverde123 wrote:

      1. its supposed that armored cars and motorized infantry are the dedicated scout units, now its true that every units have their own scout unit but if every unit have the capability of spot the stealth units, its better just eliminate this mechanic.


      2. its supposed armored cars were the main scout weapon on ground in ww2, also jeeps, and motorized infantry are exactly this. now respect about mech infantry, again, if all units have scout capabilities stealth mecanics simple doesnt have any sense.

      3. personal preferences. but you cant deny that the game have more valid options to choose, now i can outsmart my enemy instead of just have more firepower.
      1. You've just admitted that the choice of scouting units in this game have no bearings on reality, which is basically one of RogodeterSnowl's point.

      2. You speak as if not a single jeep can be found in an entire infantry brigade/division :)

      3. Can I outsmart my enemy? No, because they simply put AC or MI in their armies. All of a sudden, stealth units are spotted 100km away. All talks about "outsmarting the enemy" are gone with the wind. Worse, you too are forced to put AC or MI in your armies. All talks about diversity of Doctrines are gone with the wind, again. Just terrific.
    • Agree strongly with the comments in this thread.

      The only unit that needs "stealth" to function is the submarine. Submarines have always been smaller, slower, and weaker than surface ships of the same age. What makes them effective is the ability to sneak into a shipping lane and remain hidden, patrolling slowly, waiting for the opportunity to sink an unsuspecting transport. That was the main purpose of submarines, until the SSBN came long during the Cold War.

      No other unit needs this mechanic. Units that are good at digging in and playing defense already have high defensive stats. That's why the AT gun is what it is. AT guns and AA guns don't need an extra "capability".

      And I absolutely agree that forcing everyone to research and build anti-stealth units is silly. Let these decisions be made according to doctrine, or play style.

      Besides, battalion and division size troop formations always have their own scouting capabilities. Else they would not be able to function. They wouldn't see anything, and they wouldn't be able to fight.