Build then upgrade or upgrade then build... which is cheaper?

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    • Build then upgrade or upgrade then build... which is cheaper?

      Is it cheaper to do the research before you start building a bunch of units or build the units and then research and upgrade to a higher level?

      For example, is it cheaper to build a bunch of level 1 planes and then do the research and upgrade them to level 3 or cheaper to research up to level 3 and then build level 3 planes?

    • I don't know about which is cheaper but in my opinion you are asking the wrong question because realistically speaking you will have to do both.

      Holding out to research late means you will lose all early fights and not make it into late game.

      Researching a lot early without building many units (remember your resources) will lose you the late game because your opponents can outmaneuver you, because you lack the unit count to meet them in favourable fights.

    • Agent47 wrote:

      I don't know about which is cheaper but in my opinion you are asking the wrong question because realistically speaking you will have to do both.

      Holding out to research late means you will lose all early fights and not make it into late game.

      Researching a lot early without building many units (remember your resources) will lose you the late game because your opponents can outmaneuver you, because you lack the unit count to meet them in favourable fights.
      Agreed. Not to mention you'll also need to invest in the building upgrades to build the researched higher level units at a reasonable speed.

    • MNet wrote:

      Is it cheaper to do the research before you start building a bunch of units or build the units and then research and upgrade to a higher level?

      For example, is it cheaper to build a bunch of level 1 planes and then do the research and upgrade them to level 3 or cheaper to research up to level 3 and then build level 3 planes?
      Say that a level 1 unit costs 10 then a level 2 unit costs 12. Its not exactly linear but for explaining its close enough.
      Upgrading costs halve the price of the new unit.

      So in this example a level 1 unit costs 10, level 2 costs 12 and level 3 costs 14. That means upgrading to level 3 from any other level costs 7 per unit. And upgrading from level 2 costs 6 per unit.

      Build 10 level 1 planes and it will cost you 100.
      Build 10 level 2 planes and it will cost you 120.
      Build 10 level 3 planes and it will cost you 140.

      So if you build 10 level 1 airplanes and then upgrade to level 2 and then later to level 3 it will be 100 + 60 + 70 = 230 total. Waiting and building 10 level 3's immediately is way cheaper.

      Petrus Beauvilliers wrote:

      Agent47 wrote:

      I don't know about which is cheaper but in my opinion you are asking the wrong question because realistically speaking you will have to do both.

      Holding out to research late means you will lose all early fights and not make it into late game.

      Researching a lot early without building many units (remember your resources) will lose you the late game because your opponents can outmaneuver you, because you lack the unit count to meet them in favourable fights.
      Agreed. Not to mention you'll also need to invest in the building upgrades to build the researched higher level units at a reasonable speed.
      This is not completely true, as you can catch up your build time and the resources saved to do it.

      Example 1: build 10 units a day and research the next level every 2 days.
      After 10 days you will have 100 units on 5 different levels with 20 at each level. As the example above shows that means spending another 40 units worth of level 5 resources to have all the units at level 5 (80 units are not level 5, upgrading costs halve what a level 5 units costs, meaning 80X.5=40)). So in total you spend 140 level 5 units worth of resources + 20 level 1, 20 level 2, 20 level 3 and 20 level 4 units worth of resources.
      Let's say all unit production buildings made it until level 3 in this example.

      Example 2: do research until level 5 and then build 100 units. This means you can spend the 40 level 5 units worth amount of resources from example 1 + the 20 level 1,2,3 and 4 units worth of resources on developing your unit production buildings.
      Let's say all unit production buildings made it until level 5 in this example because of all the resources saved.

      Let us also assume that the player in example 2 is smart enough to invest in his economy and uses low level troops to still help conquer territory (from AI for example). This would also give the economical advantage to the player from example 2 which is not unrealistic.

      If you do things according to level 1, it is obvious that at day 10 you have a big advantage. Example 2 shows how this can flip later in time. If the player from example 2 is given enough time he can catch up to the player from example 1 with fewer resources spend on troops. If these players get into a war at this point, the player from example 2 has an advantage because of all the resources saved from upgrades and being able to invest these in unit production buildings and the economy.

      Example 1 and 2 are not at all realistic and players will have to do some of both. My point here is that players that strategising according to example 2 has an advantage once a certain tipping point is reached. The question is if they can manage to live long enough until that tipping point is reached. If they start a fight unprepared they will likely suffer greatly. If they are the ones that decide when the fight starts they are more likely to win.

      Upgrading some troops and not some others, for example upgrade your infantry no higher than level 3 while waiting to have a decently upgraded mechanised core can really help out in winning a map. It gives a bit of the best of both.

    • This is fair, though I'd like to see the math on the building upgrades accordingly, and being able to keep up with economy at the same time. If you are upgrading research and buildings, forget about producing factories to keep up.

      What I am trying to say is there is a loss in time, and time is money. Therefore the time spent simply trying to upgrade is not likely work it, especially if you are in a map with more experienced players. I agree a mix has to be made, and in a vacuum environment, scenario 2 works very well.

      On top of this, what about the doctrines, this can play extensively into this question. Allies will be more successful with the approach, while Axis will struggle and approaching with heavy research early on is not likely a good tactic due to the increased expenses.

    • Petrus Beauvilliers wrote:

      On top of this, what about the doctrines, this can play extensively into this question. Allies will be more successful with the approach, while Axis will struggle and approaching with heavy research early on is not likely a good tactic due to the increased expenses.
      Allies and Comintern doctrine can both do this quite effectively. Allies due to their cheaper and faster research and Comintern because of their cheaper troops. Allies does not need to do this as much though since their troop upgrades are cheaper. This can give an advantage in having the tip of your spear always be the latest model of units.

      Axis does have the advantage that they can be 1 research level behind on the others and have pretty much equally strong troops. This means that they can choose specific units to be better than all the others and put some more resources into research here and there.

      Pan Asian would have to use their faster unit speed tot take advantage of waiting and using resources for other things than upgrades. Meaning having a core that has high level production buildings and being able to send their units far away from there faster because of their increased speed.

    • Edepedable wrote:

      Petrus Beauvilliers wrote:

      On top of this, what about the doctrines, this can play extensively into this question. Allies will be more successful with the approach, while Axis will struggle and approaching with heavy research early on is not likely a good tactic due to the increased expenses.
      Allies and Comintern doctrine can both do this quite effectively. Allies due to their cheaper and faster research and Comintern because of their cheaper troops. Allies does not need to do this as much though since their troop upgrades are cheaper. This can give an advantage in having the tip of your spear always be the latest model of units.
      Axis does have the advantage that they can be 1 research level behind on the others and have pretty much equally strong troops. This means that they can choose specific units to be better than all the others and put some more resources into research here and there.

      Pan Asian would have to use their faster unit speed tot take advantage of waiting and using resources for other things than upgrades. Meaning having a core that has high level production buildings and being able to send their units far away from there faster because of their increased speed.
      Good point... I didn't consider the impact doctrines would have on the math.

    • Agent47 wrote:

      I don't know about which is cheaper but in my opinion you are asking the wrong question because realistically speaking you will have to do both.

      Holding out to research late means you will lose all early fights and not make it into late game.

      Researching a lot early without building many units (remember your resources) will lose you the late game because your opponents can outmaneuver you, because you lack the unit count to meet them in favourable fights.
      I'm not suggesting to apply the build low / research high approach to all units, but rather a balance of troops that upgrade as they go and specific units that I build a lot at low levels and then research and upgrade multiple levels at once. For example, I rarely use aircraft in the early stages of a game. They simple take too much damage at lower levels. Better to build 10 level 1 planes and then hold off using them, and upgrade to level 4 after the research is done. If I'm reading the tables right, it appears an upgrade from level 1 to 4 cost the exact same thing as an upgrade from 3 to 4. Better to build cheap (level 1) and then jump up once (1 to 4) then to pay to build levels 1, 2, and 3 and then have to pay for each upgrade... 1 to 2, 2 to 3, and 3 to 4.

    • MNet wrote:

      Better to build cheap (level 1) and then jump up once (1 to 4) then to pay to build levels 1, 2, and 3 and then have to pay for each upgrade... 1 to 2, 2 to 3, and 3 to 4.
      Or, even better than upgrading level 1 units. Just start building level 4 units. I do not use planes in the early stages of the game for the same reasons you mentioned. My first airplane that I build is usually level 3. Saves a lot of resources.

    • Edepedable wrote:

      MNet wrote:

      Better to build cheap (level 1) and then jump up once (1 to 4) then to pay to build levels 1, 2, and 3 and then have to pay for each upgrade... 1 to 2, 2 to 3, and 3 to 4.
      Or, even better than upgrading level 1 units. Just start building level 4 units. I do not use planes in the early stages of the game for the same reasons you mentioned. My first airplane that I build is usually level 3. Saves a lot of resources.
      While I think waiting to build level 3 is better than building level 1 and upgrading over and over again, I don't think it works out as well as building level 1 and then upgrading to level 3. That's what I'm trying to do the math on. The other big issue with building at the higher levels is that it takes forever. Even with a level 3 airport it takes more than a day to build a single plane. Potentially it would be better to have 10 level 1 planes in reserve and upgrade (at 40% of the cost of a level 3 or 4 or 5 plane build) in just an hour or two.

    • Upgrading a unit takes half of the units minimal build time. If building planes takes over a day for you, you need to go higher on your production buildings. I try to aim for the minimum build time or in some cases one level lower if that still suffices my needs. It is not strange for me to have 5 level 5 production buildings as a minimum for any production building. For ordnance that number is usually higher because of artillery and anti-air. For barracks and tank factories this can also be the case because of all the different infantry types and tank destroyers vs tanks.

    • Edepedable wrote:

      Upgrading a unit takes half of the units minimal build time. If building planes takes over a day for you, you need to go higher on your production buildings. I try to aim for the minimum build time or in some cases one level lower if that still suffices my needs. It is not strange for me to have 5 level 5 production buildings as a minimum for any production building. For ordnance that number is usually higher because of artillery and anti-air. For barracks and tank factories this can also be the case because of all the different infantry types and tank destroyers vs tanks.
      When I say it takes over a day I'm talking level 6 and 7 planes being built in level 3 air factories in cities with high morale. May not sound like much but that's usually when you need them the most. Building level 3 factories for artillery and tanks sounds good, but I need those factories close to the front lines and that line moves fast and often. Front line factories are far more likely to be lower levels. Also, the upgrade times that I'm seeing are far less than half. For example building a level 3 artillery at a level 1 factory takes 16 hours. Upgrading a level 1 unit to a level 3 at any location on the board only takes 96 minutes.

    • MNet wrote:

      When I say it takes over a day I'm talking level 6 and 7 planes being built in level 3 air factories in cities with high morale. May not sound like much but that's usually when you need them the most. Building level 3 factories for artillery and tanks sounds good, but I need those factories close to the front lines and that line moves fast and often. Front line factories are far more likely to be lower levels. Also, the upgrade times that I'm seeing are far less than half. For example building a level 3 artillery at a level 1 factory takes 16 hours. Upgrading a level 1 unit to a level 3 at any location on the board only takes 96 minutes.
      In the research tab it says how long it takes to build a unit normally (level 1 building with morale higher than 80%) and it also says the minimal build time possible for that unit. After that, every upgrade halves the building time until the minimum build time is reached.

      Building a level 3 artillery takes me 18 hours (Comintern) and the minimal build time says it takes 4 hours and 30 minutes. So having a level 3 production building is optimal.
      Level 1 ordnance foundry = 18 hours (no bonus)
      Level 2 ordnance foundry = 18 : 2 = 9 hours (50% bonus)
      Level 3 ordnance foundry = 18 : 2 : 2 = 4.5hours (50% bonus and 50% bonus)

      So upgrading level 1 artillery to level 3 artillery takes halve of 4 hours and 30 minutes which is 2 hours and 15 minutes or 125 minutes if you will.
      Upgrading is not related to a building, it always takes halve the minimal build time.
      If you upgrade your artillery from level 1 to level 3 in 96 minutes that tells me you are playing with an allies doctrine. Some unit build times vary on the doctrine.

      I produce most equipment in or around my core for a lot of reasons. It goes faster since morale is good and the production buildings are high level. Because units keep pouring out of my core, enemies never find my core empty. Not that enemies make it to my core anyway, but still. It helps.
      Building a level 6 or 7 airplane in a factory near the frontline which takes a couple of days is crazy, there is no need. What if the factory falls into enemy hands while you are building, quite the waste. Also, if your front line moves that quickly as you say, how can you wait for days on a new airplane.
      Since airplanes are the fastest units in the game and can cross a lot of ground quicker than any other type of units these are actually perfectly suited to build in or around your core the entire game and then fly them to where they are needed. Say that it takes 9.5 hours to build the airplane in your core and then it takes a day to fly where you need it. That is still halve as fast as it takes you to build an airplane around the frontline with a level 3 aircraft factory.

    • Edepedable wrote:

      MNet wrote:

      When I say it takes over a day I'm talking level 6 and 7 planes being built in level 3 air factories in cities with high morale. May not sound like much but that's usually when you need them the most. Building level 3 factories for artillery and tanks sounds good, but I need those factories close to the front lines and that line moves fast and often. Front line factories are far more likely to be lower levels. Also, the upgrade times that I'm seeing are far less than half. For example building a level 3 artillery at a level 1 factory takes 16 hours. Upgrading a level 1 unit to a level 3 at any location on the board only takes 96 minutes.
      In the research tab it says how long it takes to build a unit normally (level 1 building with morale higher than 80%) and it also says the minimal build time possible for that unit. After that, every upgrade halves the building time until the minimum build time is reached.
      Building a level 3 artillery takes me 18 hours (Comintern) and the minimal build time says it takes 4 hours and 30 minutes. So having a level 3 production building is optimal.
      Level 1 ordnance foundry = 18 hours (no bonus)
      Level 2 ordnance foundry = 18 : 2 = 9 hours (50% bonus)
      Level 3 ordnance foundry = 18 : 2 : 2 = 4.5hours (50% bonus and 50% bonus)

      So upgrading level 1 artillery to level 3 artillery takes halve of 4 hours and 30 minutes which is 2 hours and 15 minutes or 125 minutes if you will.
      Upgrading is not related to a building, it always takes halve the minimal build time.
      If you upgrade your artillery from level 1 to level 3 in 96 minutes that tells me you are playing with an allies doctrine. Some unit build times vary on the doctrine.

      I produce most equipment in or around my core for a lot of reasons. It goes faster since morale is good and the production buildings are high level. Because units keep pouring out of my core, enemies never find my core empty. Not that enemies make it to my core anyway, but still. It helps.
      Building a level 6 or 7 airplane in a factory near the frontline which takes a couple of days is crazy, there is no need. What if the factory falls into enemy hands while you are building, quite the waste. Also, if your front line moves that quickly as you say, how can you wait for days on a new airplane.
      Since airplanes are the fastest units in the game and can cross a lot of ground quicker than any other type of units these are actually perfectly suited to build in or around your core the entire game and then fly them to where they are needed. Say that it takes 9.5 hours to build the airplane in your core and then it takes a day to fly where you need it. That is still halve as fast as it takes you to build an airplane around the frontline with a level 3 aircraft factory.
      I agree on the planes. No advantage of building those near the front. Much faster and safer to build at home and fly where you need to go. The same can't be said for the other units. I prefer to build at least a level 1 tank and artillery factory near the front and seed them along as the front moves (hopefully) further away from home.

      As for the build times. I'm not sure I follow your logic. I have a doctrine that cuts 20% time/cost for upgrades, but even with that upgrading from level 1 artillery to level 3 takes 1 hour 36 minutes. Upgrading from level 2 to level 3 also takes 1 hour and 36 minutes. The cost and time go up as the level I'm going to goes up, but there doesn't appear to be any difference in the amount of time or the cost between upgrading up 1 level or going up 3 levels.

      Still getting samples and don't know if it applies to all unit types (or the impact of doctrine) but it appears that upgrading 1 level is more expensive than just building to the higher level. Upgrading two levels is about the same and building low and upgrading by 3 levels or more represents a significant savings. So pumping out 10 planes at level 1 and then later upgrading them after you've researched level 4 is both cheaper and significantly faster than waiting and building 10 level 4 planes would have been.

    • MNet wrote:

      As for the build times. I'm not sure I follow your logic. I have a doctrine that cuts 20% time/cost for upgrades, but even with that upgrading from level 1 artillery to level 3 takes 1 hour 36 minutes. Upgrading from level 2 to level 3 also takes 1 hour and 36 minutes. The cost and time go up as the level I'm going to goes up, but there doesn't appear to be any difference in the amount of time or the cost between upgrading up 1 level or going up 3 levels.

      Still getting samples and don't know if it applies to all unit types (or the impact of doctrine) but it appears that upgrading 1 level is more expensive than just building to the higher level. Upgrading two levels is about the same and building low and upgrading by 3 levels or more represents a significant savings. So pumping out 10 planes at level 1 and then later upgrading them after you've researched level 4 is both cheaper and significantly faster than waiting and building 10 level 4 planes would have been.
      The upgrade time depends on the level you are upgrading towards. If you are upgrading a level 1 unit to level 3 or a level 2 unit to level 3 it will both take halve the build time of a level 3 unit to upgrade. And cost you halve of what a new level 3 unit costs.

      Building 10 aircraft at level 1 costs you the price of 10 level 1 aircraft. If you then upgrade them to level 4 it costs a total of 10 X level 1 + 10 X 0.5(halve the price of a new unit) = 5 times the price of a level 4 plane.
      If you directly build 10 level 4 planes it will just cost you the price of 10 level 4 aircraft.

      Say the price of 1 level 1 aircraft is 10. They cost about 20% more on each level. The growth is not linear though and gets more and more expensive from the point of view of the level 1 unit.
      Level 1 = $100
      level 2 = $ 110
      Level 3 = $125
      Level 4 = $145

      Building 10 level 1 planes = $100 X 10 = $1000, upgrading to level 4 = 10 X 0.5 X 145 = 725. Total $1725.
      Building 10 level 4 planes = $145 X 10 = $1450.

      Building at a higher level right away is cheaper. The question is if waiting that long is doable or not.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Edepedable ().

    • you forget to amortize expenses of fabrics for highlevel units...
      Another example, say level x unit is 2 times stronger than lvl 1 unit, it but it costs only 60% more.
      For 200% of level 1 you can get also 2 level 1 units. For 160% of level 1 you can get new builded 1 level x unit or upgaded one wich costs 100% for level 1 + half of 160% also 80% for upgrade. now you paid 20% of level 1 unit more, then by building only level x unit, but you safe time and expenses of fabrik level x. you paid also 12.5 % more for same unit, but safed time and cost of fabric. Also, yeah sometimes upgading is a way cheaper... Sometime no. It depend on how much levels you jumping throw single update.

      The post was edited 2 times, last by Last Warrior ().

    • Last Warrior wrote:

      you forget to amortize expenses of fabrics for highlevel units...
      Another example, say level x unit is 2 times stronger than lvl 1 unit, it but it costs only 60% more.
      For 200% of level 1 you can get also 2 level 1 units. For 160% of level 1 you can get new builded 1 level x unit or upgaded one wich costs 100% for level 1 + half of 160% also 80% for upgrade. now you paid 20% of level 1 unit more, then by building only level x unit, but you safe time and expenses of fabrik level x. you paid also 12.5 % more for same unit, but safed time and cost of fabric. Also, yeah sometimes upgading is a way cheaper... Sometime no. It depend on how much levels you jumping throw single update.
      I guess with fabrics you mean factories? I do not factor them in because the cost/gain differs on how many units you build. Also, not upgrading your factories is not an option anymore at some point. It also does not really change the outcome, researching first and building after is cheaper than building and then upgrading.
      I'm sorry but I do not really see the point you are trying to make. It seems to me that 160% is still cheaper than 180% so that means that building units after research is still cheaper.
      Upgrading is never cheaper because you always pay for halve the unit price and 100% of the unit price at a lower level.
      It can only happen if the upgraded unit is more than twice the price of the low level unit, I do not know if this happens anywhere.

      The only way it can be cheaper is if a unit costs 100 at a low level and more than twice that at a higher level.
      Meaning the low level unit would cost 100 and the higher level would be more than 200. If the upgrade would cost 100 and the initial unit cost was also 100 that makes 200 total. If the initial unit is 100 and the high level unit is 210, then the low level unit being 100 and the upgrade to the high level unit makes 105 totalling in at 205. That way upgrading the low level units would be cheaper and probably also faster in total build time. It is not at all faster though if you also take into account the amount of time you are waiting for the research to finish.

      So even if it does happen you are left with a problem. If you make a lot of units in the early stage of the game with the intent to upgrade them once research is done at a later stage you have a lot of time in which you can not use your units. Meanwhile you pay for a lot of upkeep while the research is being done. What good do units do you if you can not use them? You would probably be better of investing those resources into growing your economy.

      It is not very likely that players can do this on a large enough scale to gain any benefit by it. The reverse is much easier and likely to happen it seems to me. Wait for the right time to start building a lot of units, use them, and then pick another good moment to upgrade them or build more. That way you can save some resources.

    • For sure you can use outdated units too.
      That is a main advantages. You can use your slightly more expencive units for succefull gain of plenly new ressourses, while decision to wait for more efficient units will end in devastating losses against zergrusher.

      If you dont count expences of faktories, you should not count daily upkeep. And you should count losses of not gained ressourses by not builded industry, because you wasted time and ressourses for faktories.

      And if you build industry first, faktories second and researched units third, you should count losses of not gained ressourses by not conquered provinces. But it is too high for you... Analitics is not for everyone.
      Even without third part you lose time by preparation. And time is not recovereble. At the end you have more ressourses, but enemy on your border has more power full strikeforces. Your units are more efficient, but enemy who use other way ("expencive one" ) has more overall power.

      And I said updaring can be cheaper then recruiting. But row stats tell otherwise. Only full balance sheet can proof it.

    • @Last Warrior I have no idea if you are disagreeing or supporting my explanation?
      I do hope you understand that I am not advocating for sitting around doing nothing while you do research so that you can start building units later as cheap as possible. The question was 'what is cheaper, building and then upgrading or researching and then building'. All I am saying is that researching and then building is indeed the cheaper option.
      What this means in practice depends on your position, doctrine and many other things. I think the most realistic option is to wait with building certain units in masses that are not all that needed at lower levels, but very good at higher levels. Units like planes, or commando's for example.

      Last Warrior wrote:

      For sure you can use outdated units too.
      That is a main advantages. You can use your slightly more expencive units for succefull gain of plenly new ressourses, while decision to wait for more efficient units will end in devastating losses against zergrusher.
      Zergrushuer is a bit of a vague term, not exactly sure what it means though I have read it in a guide once or twice. But generally any type of rush is stopped quite easily with just having defensive units. Which everyone has in the beginning. Problem with gaining new resources with a rush tactics is that you also spend a lot of resources on getting them. So it is not all that efficient if you are fighting an enemy player. More so against small AI in which case capturing their capitol instantly grows your overall morale with 10%.

      Last Warrior wrote:

      If you dont count expences of faktories, you should not count daily upkeep. And you should count losses of not gained ressourses by not builded industry, because you wasted time and ressourses for faktories.
      If you count for the resources spend on factories, you also have to take into account build time. It is ridiculous to build units higher than level 2 with a level 1 factory. What good do lots of resources do you if you can not convert them into units fast enough?

      Last Warrior wrote:

      And if you build industry first, faktories second and researched units third, you should count losses of not gained ressourses by not conquered provinces. But it is too high for you... Analitics is not for everyone.
      You are right, analytics is not for everyone. But don't worry! I am sure you will get it at some point :thumbsup:

      Last Warrior wrote:

      Even without third part you lose time by preparation. And time is not recovereble. At the end you have more ressourses, but enemy on your border has more power full strikeforces. Your units are more efficient, but enemy who use other way ("expencive one" ) has more overall power.
      Right, but I am not saying that you should wait until you have higher level upgrades and just not build units until you can do it at high level. I just tried to answer the question 'what is cheaper'.

      Last Warrior wrote:

      And I said updaring can be cheaper then recruiting. But row stats tell otherwise. Only full balance sheet can proof it.
      I have no idea what this means? Upgrading can be cheaper than recruiting? But you have to recruit before you upgrade anyway, so what do you mean? What are row stats? What is 'full balance sheet'