Morale is still an issue

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    • Morale is still an issue

      Hi,

      I previously in the CoW 1.5 feedback wrote a post relating to morale being a major issue (I was having 30+ revolts/day, and on speed rounds it just wasnt manageable).

      Anyway since then propaganda offices have been introduced... but morale is still a massive, massive issue.

      For example, I am playing a round at the moment, I am New South Wales. I have taken all of Oceania, all of East Asia and Im now working on West Asia pushing to Europe. As you can imagine, from New South Wales to Kazakhstan, my "Distance to Capital" is already at a penalty of -30.

      With the new "Expansion" penalty, that is now at -21 aswell.

      This combination, gives me a -51 penalty on every new province I take before I even start.
      Obviously, now we have the neighbour penalty. Some provinces have 6-9 roads coming into them... a province on (100-51=49% morale) gives a -5 neighbour penalty. -5*6 = -30... so now many, many of my provinces have penalty of -30, -30, -21 = -81 morale. This means that even when I conquer newly taken provinces, they are already falling, with a high chance of revolt.

      Obviously the new propaganda offices increase morale, level 1 = +10, level 2 = +23, level 3 = +40.
      At 25% morale,
      Level 1 takes 10.5 hours
      Level 2 takes 21 hours
      level 3 takes 1 day, 7.5 hours
      Which means that in the first day, I can only build a level 1 - assuming there are at least 10.5 hours left until day change, which often there isnt.

      This gives me a penalty of -71%

      On the first day change, the morale is still at 25%, which means many of my newly taken provinces all revolt - including the ones building the propaganda offices. So now, I am back to square 1.

      I have spent the last 5 days building nothing but propaganda offices and light tanks to hold the fort until more prop offices are built. Going by current speeds, I have at least another 5 days of building prop offices until I am stable. That is not fun, and needs to be fixed. Furthermore, my ally has been supplying me with resources to build prop offices - without his help, I would have lost many many provinces to revolt. My resource production (+/- 2.3k/day on WaW map) is not enough to keep up with the number I need to keep building prop offices anyway.

      I would propose the following changes to fix this issue
      - When propaganda offices are built, they instantly adjust the morale of a province (e.g. when built 25% becomes 35% immediately). This means the provinces in which propaganda offices are built, will not revolt, and gives me a chance at least to start building a morale cluster in new provinces before they start revolting
      - Expansion and Distance to Capital penalties are capped at -20, but neighbour cap is increased to -40. The reason for this is because the -21 + -30 penalty is too much instantly, that it doesnt give me a chance to recover morale, so my neighbour bonus is instantly lower too, and its a downward spiral. IF however, this "immediate" penalty was only -40 (from 2x -20 caps on expansion and distance to capital) then on provinces with e.g. only 3 neighbours, the penalty will be -21 for neihbours on all newly-taken.. total penalty being -61 (worst case scenario) - which means all my smaller provinces, or those with less access will ALWAYS end up on at least 39% morale, and therefore will never drop low enough to revolt.

      This in turn makes their neighbours (which may have 8 or 9 neighbours) have a reduced penalty and slowly go up

      Long story short, it gives you a fighting chance of recovering morale on newly taken large empires without spending days on building nothing but propaganda offices and spamming level 1 troops to hold provinces until the prop offices are built.

      ....look at this, what a joke lol
      gyazo.com/0478f5c974e2ff6603797fa2b45cf58e

      This image below you can see my nice green morale coming up through ocenaia, papua, borneo etc. But following that, its just a mess, even in east china provinces which I took days ago, and are now at risk of revolt too. You can see I have experimented with a morale cluster around north india, but it doesnt spread far enough.

      gyazo.com/66b13880cd78d9355627d8279c501437
      I currently have 47 level 3 prop offices, 21 at level 2, 19 at level 1 and have had 0 resource spare (due to HC Queue) for the last 5 days. And from the picture, you can clearly see, I still have nowhere near enough to stabilise.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by ryanb96 ().

    • Freezy - can we get some dev thoughts on this please?

      Post was Monday, Its now 48h hours later, and my morale is still killing me... I've still been building non strop prop offices.

      Some provinces have
      "Distance to capital" - "-30"
      "Neighbours" - "-35" (I thought this was capped at -30, apparently not!
      "Expansion" - "-29"

      ...Thats a morale penalty of -94%! How am I supposed to maintain an empire with these kinds of penalty? My enemy has managed to double his troop numbers, and Im just stuck building prop offices
    • Propaganda Offices are not the way to go. Garrison captured cities with units and plan out the capture of enemy capitals when it will benefit you morale a lot. I like to garrison with fast units while slow units make it to new front. Also if you capture a barracks3 for example you can build a militia in 45mins I think.
    • Your reply isn't helpful, and doesn't solve the issue though.

      You cannot put 3 militia in every single province of 500+ provinces... It's not practical

      If you look at the original post, you will see I have already capture almost all enemy capitals - so that's no longer really an option. Also, capturing an enemy capital only gives every province a +10 bonus. That disappears when the morale drops by 10 again on day change.
    • ryanb96 wrote:

      Your reply isn't helpful, and doesn't solve the issue though.

      You cannot put 3 militia in every single province of 500+ provinces... It's not practical

      If you look at the original post, you will see I have already capture almost all enemy capitals - so that's no longer really an option. Also, capturing an enemy capital only gives every province a +10 bonus. That disappears when the morale drops by 10 again on day change.
      You don't need to put militia in your cores or places that are not going to revolt... You can spam out like 50 militia a day and do that for two days and it will be enough. Don't worry that much, you can always recapture them. Building 200 propaganda offices also isn't practical. You can move militia to other provinces, it's reusable.
      "A single death is a tragedy; a million deaths is a statistic." - Joseph Stalin

      Found a bug or need help? Send a ticket here!
    • I think you both misunderstand.

      When you expand you get an expansion penalty. My expansion penalty is -30.
      This means every single province now has an expansion penalty of -30.
      This means that every single province nowhas a maximum morale % of 70% without any kind of bonus.

      As the morale in the provinces slowly drop due to the expansion penalty, for every 10% lost (rounding down the morale % left), they give -1 to each neighbour. Which means now, each province is giving neighbouring provinces -3. Most provinces have 4-5 "neighbours" (i.e. connect to adjacent territory).

      Example, Province A connects to B, C, D, E.
      Each B, C, D, E is giving -3 to A. Thats -12 for A.

      Now the maximum morale A can have is 70-12 = 58%
      In turn, A is now actually giving -5 back to each of B, C, D, E rather than -3. (Assuming C is also connected to A, B, D, E means that C is now also getting even lower thanks to lowering neighbours, but lets not go into that downward spiral yet).

      Back to province A on 58%.

      Now we take in "Distance to capital" of -30 aswell.
      This means the maximum morale A can have is only 58-30 = 28% morale. (This is also now giving -8 to B, C, D, E as a neighbour - 28% -> round down -> 20%, this is 80% lost, so -8).

      Since B, C, D, E also have -30 distance to capital and -30 expansion, and -8 from province A, the max morale that B, C, D, E can have is 100-30-30-8 = 32%. Which means each of them is giving -7 back to A. A is getting -7 * 4 = -28 Neighbour penalty.

      So the max morale A can have is 100 -30 -30 -28 = 12% morale.

      This means that province A will always have a 30%+ chance of "uprising" unless I permanently keep troops in there to stop it revolting. But even if I do that, the morale will stay low and never go up. - The troops are not reusable, because the militia will ahve to stay in the province permanently. Fruthermore, with that many uprising attempts, many militia will die each day, which means I will spend all day replacing dead militia.

      I hope this makes sense.

      It is the same issue with every single province - they all have the same penalties - they are all lowering on a daily basis. I cannot put 3 miltiia in every single province to stop them revolting. I have over 500 provinces.
    • ryanb96 wrote:

      I think you both misunderstand.

      When you expand you get an expansion penalty. My expansion penalty is -30.
      This means every single province now has an expansion penalty of -30.
      This means that every single province nowhas a maximum morale % of 70% without any kind of bonus.

      As the morale in the provinces slowly drop due to the expansion penalty, for every 10% lost (rounding down the morale % left), they give -1 to each neighbour. Which means now, each province is giving neighbouring provinces -3. Most provinces have 4-5 "neighbours" (i.e. connect to adjacent territory).

      Example, Province A connects to B, C, D, E.
      Each B, C, D, E is giving -3 to A. Thats -12 for A.

      Now the maximum morale A can have is 70-12 = 58%
      In turn, A is now actually giving -5 back to each of B, C, D, E rather than -3. (Assuming C is also connected to A, B, D, E means that C is now also getting even lower thanks to lowering neighbours, but lets not go into that downward spiral yet).

      Back to province A on 58%.

      Now we take in "Distance to capital" of -30 aswell.
      This means the maximum morale A can have is only 58-30 = 28% morale. (This is also now giving -8 to B, C, D, E as a neighbour - 28% -> round down -> 20%, this is 80% lost, so -8).

      Since B, C, D, E also have -30 distance to capital and -30 expansion, and -8 from province A, the max morale that B, C, D, E can have is 100-30-30-8 = 32%. Which means each of them is giving -7 back to A. A is getting -7 * 4 = -28 Neighbour penalty.

      So the max morale A can have is 100 -30 -30 -28 = 12% morale.

      This means that province A will always have a 30%+ chance of "uprising" unless I permanently keep troops in there to stop it revolting. But even if I do that, the morale will stay low and never go up. - The troops are not reusable, because the militia will ahve to stay in the province permanently. Fruthermore, with that many uprising attempts, many militia will die each day, which means I will spend all day replacing dead militia.

      I hope this makes sense.

      It is the same issue with every single province - they all have the same penalties - they are all lowering on a daily basis. I cannot put 3 miltiia in every single province to stop them revolting. I have over 500 provinces.
      You need to keep the morale under control as you expand, this will keep the neighbors modifier under control to some extent. No one said garrison every province but you need to garrison all the red morale ones until the next game day... its not really difficult at all.
    • ryanb96 wrote:

      I think you both misunderstand.

      When you expand you get an expansion penalty. My expansion penalty is -30.
      This means every single province now has an expansion penalty of -30.
      This means that every single province nowhas a maximum morale % of 70% without any kind of bonus.

      As the morale in the provinces slowly drop due to the expansion penalty, for every 10% lost (rounding down the morale % left), they give -1 to each neighbour. Which means now, each province is giving neighbouring provinces -3. Most provinces have 4-5 "neighbours" (i.e. connect to adjacent territory).

      Example, Province A connects to B, C, D, E.
      Each B, C, D, E is giving -3 to A. Thats -12 for A.

      Now the maximum morale A can have is 70-12 = 58%
      In turn, A is now actually giving -5 back to each of B, C, D, E rather than -3. (Assuming C is also connected to A, B, D, E means that C is now also getting even lower thanks to lowering neighbours, but lets not go into that downward spiral yet).

      Back to province A on 58%.

      Now we take in "Distance to capital" of -30 aswell.
      This means the maximum morale A can have is only 58-30 = 28% morale. (This is also now giving -8 to B, C, D, E as a neighbour - 28% -> round down -> 20%, this is 80% lost, so -8).

      Since B, C, D, E also have -30 distance to capital and -30 expansion, and -8 from province A, the max morale that B, C, D, E can have is 100-30-30-8 = 32%. Which means each of them is giving -7 back to A. A is getting -7 * 4 = -28 Neighbour penalty.

      So the max morale A can have is 100 -30 -30 -28 = 12% morale.

      This means that province A will always have a 30%+ chance of "uprising" unless I permanently keep troops in there to stop it revolting. But even if I do that, the morale will stay low and never go up. - The troops are not reusable, because the militia will ahve to stay in the province permanently. Fruthermore, with that many uprising attempts, many militia will die each day, which means I will spend all day replacing dead militia.

      I hope this makes sense.

      It is the same issue with every single province - they all have the same penalties - they are all lowering on a daily basis. I cannot put 3 miltiia in every single province to stop them revolting. I have over 500 provinces.
      I believe that's not how the morale system works.
      "A single death is a tragedy; a million deaths is a statistic." - Joseph Stalin

      Found a bug or need help? Send a ticket here!
    • Heinrici wrote:

      ryanb96 wrote:

      I think you both misunderstand.

      When you expand you get an expansion penalty. My expansion penalty is -30.
      This means every single province now has an expansion penalty of -30.
      This means that every single province nowhas a maximum morale % of 70% without any kind of bonus.

      As the morale in the provinces slowly drop due to the expansion penalty, for every 10% lost (rounding down the morale % left), they give -1 to each neighbour. Which means now, each province is giving neighbouring provinces -3. Most provinces have 4-5 "neighbours" (i.e. connect to adjacent territory).

      Example, Province A connects to B, C, D, E.
      Each B, C, D, E is giving -3 to A. Thats -12 for A.

      Now the maximum morale A can have is 70-12 = 58%
      In turn, A is now actually giving -5 back to each of B, C, D, E rather than -3. (Assuming C is also connected to A, B, D, E means that C is now also getting even lower thanks to lowering neighbours, but lets not go into that downward spiral yet).

      Back to province A on 58%.

      Now we take in "Distance to capital" of -30 aswell.
      This means the maximum morale A can have is only 58-30 = 28% morale. (This is also now giving -8 to B, C, D, E as a neighbour - 28% -> round down -> 20%, this is 80% lost, so -8).

      Since B, C, D, E also have -30 distance to capital and -30 expansion, and -8 from province A, the max morale that B, C, D, E can have is 100-30-30-8 = 32%. Which means each of them is giving -7 back to A. A is getting -7 * 4 = -28 Neighbour penalty.

      So the max morale A can have is 100 -30 -30 -28 = 12% morale.

      This means that province A will always have a 30%+ chance of "uprising" unless I permanently keep troops in there to stop it revolting. But even if I do that, the morale will stay low and never go up. - The troops are not reusable, because the militia will ahve to stay in the province permanently. Fruthermore, with that many uprising attempts, many militia will die each day, which means I will spend all day replacing dead militia.

      I hope this makes sense.

      It is the same issue with every single province - they all have the same penalties - they are all lowering on a daily basis. I cannot put 3 miltiia in every single province to stop them revolting. I have over 500 provinces.
      You need to keep the morale under control as you expand, this will keep the neighbors modifier under control to some extent. No one said garrison every province but you need to garrison all the red morale ones until the next game day... its not really difficult at all.
      You're still missing the point... THEY ARE ALL RED lol.

      The flaw is that you CANT keep the morale under control as you expand past a certain point. You can't remove the Expansion or Distance to capital penalties, which means you always have at least -60%. So you ALWAYS have a neighbours penalty to match based on how many less than 100% morale territories are around each province. It is not manageable.
    • RBoi200 wrote:

      ryanb96 wrote:

      I think you both misunderstand.

      When you expand you get an expansion penalty. My expansion penalty is -30.
      This means every single province now has an expansion penalty of -30.
      This means that every single province nowhas a maximum morale % of 70% without any kind of bonus.

      As the morale in the provinces slowly drop due to the expansion penalty, for every 10% lost (rounding down the morale % left), they give -1 to each neighbour. Which means now, each province is giving neighbouring provinces -3. Most provinces have 4-5 "neighbours" (i.e. connect to adjacent territory).

      Example, Province A connects to B, C, D, E.
      Each B, C, D, E is giving -3 to A. Thats -12 for A.

      Now the maximum morale A can have is 70-12 = 58%
      In turn, A is now actually giving -5 back to each of B, C, D, E rather than -3. (Assuming C is also connected to A, B, D, E means that C is now also getting even lower thanks to lowering neighbours, but lets not go into that downward spiral yet).

      Back to province A on 58%.

      Now we take in "Distance to capital" of -30 aswell.
      This means the maximum morale A can have is only 58-30 = 28% morale. (This is also now giving -8 to B, C, D, E as a neighbour - 28% -> round down -> 20%, this is 80% lost, so -8).

      Since B, C, D, E also have -30 distance to capital and -30 expansion, and -8 from province A, the max morale that B, C, D, E can have is 100-30-30-8 = 32%. Which means each of them is giving -7 back to A. A is getting -7 * 4 = -28 Neighbour penalty.

      So the max morale A can have is 100 -30 -30 -28 = 12% morale.

      This means that province A will always have a 30%+ chance of "uprising" unless I permanently keep troops in there to stop it revolting. But even if I do that, the morale will stay low and never go up. - The troops are not reusable, because the militia will ahve to stay in the province permanently. Fruthermore, with that many uprising attempts, many militia will die each day, which means I will spend all day replacing dead militia.

      I hope this makes sense.

      It is the same issue with every single province - they all have the same penalties - they are all lowering on a daily basis. I cannot put 3 miltiia in every single province to stop them revolting. I have over 500 provinces.
      I believe that's not how the morale system works.
      It would be useful if a dev could read this post and provide some thoughts / incites if I am missing something
    • I was quite surprised to read this post and the problems you're having keeping morale under control! I have played quite a lot of 1.5 games, like 10+, on the world map, and in most of them I either win or at least expanded to similar levels as you describe... however, morale was never a serious problem, except in the batch of recently taken provinces, on their first day change. I don't ever build propaganda offices or bother about garrisons either except in rare cases, to make sure a recently conquered airfield doesn't revolt or something like that. To be honest I never even bothered to figure out exactly how morale worked, exactly BECAUSE it is never a problem (much like I have no idea how population works, either).

      So I was wondering what I might be doing so different than you? I think the answer must lie in capital management:
      - I take great care about the moment I take capitals, and try to make sure it is as short as possible before day change (even if that means standing right outside an empty capital for many hours);
      - I go actively on "capital hunts", for example: even when I start in Africa, I load a few tanks in a boat and sail it together with a battleship to the Pacific on one of the first few days, then another group like that a few days later. There are LOADS of small atol states there, and they are often overlooked by other players. Making speed to snatch small AI's and inactives before others do is always on my agenda as well. (There's more bonuses than just the morale for that!)
      - I often "save up" small AI states (like Switzerland, Hejjaz, Siam) and leave them be for a while, if they are not likely to be taken by third parties. Then when I make a big expansion rush without taking a capital (or "just" one), I "cash in" on my saved AI's by quickly taking them out and take the capital bonus
      - In 1.0 I used to play "capital farming": not completely taking over AI/inactives but leave them 1 or 2 provinces, wait till they build a new capital there, then cash the capital bonus a second time off the same enemy. I didn't get this to work in 1.5 yet though (can't get myself to leave CITIES untaken for such a long time); maybe someone else has tips on that though?


      Furthermore:
      - I tend to play very fast games, 3 weeks is long for me, before they are finished. Maybe your problem game is taking much longer?
      - Have you considered moving your capital? Obviously NSW is one of the most remote places on earth; maybe you'd do better if your capital was in Indochine or Burma?
      When the fake daddies are curtailed, we have failed. When their roller coaster tolerance is obliterated, their education funds are taken by Kazakhstani phishers, and their candy bars distributed between the Botswana youth gangs, we have succeeded.
      - BIG DADDY.
    • Is it possible to take N capitals per day, boosting morale by N*10% per day?
      Yes.
      Let's assume we all know this trick, and let's move on.
      That's not what this post is about.

      This post is about what happens when there ARE no capitals left to take, except for the end game countries that are still standing, preventing the player from finishing the game. In this situation, on a large map, it's possible to get into a situation where the distance + expansion + neighbor penalties are such that the game effectively stalls.

      This is not good for the game. We want players to finish maps, in a reasonable amount of time, before getting so frustrated that they give up. Yes? Then please accelerate the end game.

      Either cut the penalties (significantly) or create a different rebellion/uprising/militia system.
    • I would use units to garrison in cities. I don't really care about non city provinces. If a normal province revolts. I would usually send one unit to retake it. Although, there is a chance of revolt for each province, its not unreasonably large. The only thing I would fix is stopping random AI or inactive countries from declaring war on me for no reason.