CoW 1.5 Tip on Naval Stacks

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    • CoW 1.5 Tip on Naval Stacks

      Naval warfare in CoW 1.5 is fundamentally different from 1.0 for two reasons:
      1. Destroyers reveal subs at a distance.
      2. Transports have high HP (see the Article on Transports)


      What happens when you factor in these changes?

      1. Naval Bombers are no longer a must-have research.

      Playing against skilled opponents in 1.0 used to require an investment into naval bombers. With their limited range, it was difficult to get away with anything less than level 3-4, at which point the range became "reasonable" enough for an air grid. Less than that, and you ended up trucking bombers by land, because you could never build enough air fields. In the meantime, the enemy subs are decimating your surface ships. Now that destroyers can replace naval bombers for sub detection, bombers are not nearly as important as before.

      2. Naval stacks only need 1 destroyer.

      The primary function of the destroyer is to detect the subs at a distance. Yes, they can fight. They are good at fighting subs, at close range, trading shots and eventually sinking. But once a sub is detected, all ships can fire on it. Why get into a close range battle? Shoot and scoot, shoot and scoot. The subs cannot catch you. Once you do some damage, they get even slower. I typically only need to shoot-and-scoot once or twice, then the subs drift closer slowly as they die under constant bombardment.

      3. Easier to specialize.

      1 destroyer is the core of every naval stack. That leaves 9 more fighting spots, and 10 additional HP meat shields. Add 1 cruiser for the view range (have to see what's around you) and some AA cover. That leaves you with 8+10 slots left.


      What kind of stacks does this open up?

      1. Bombardment Stack.

      The most basic, most universally applicable stack is bombardment. You have 1 destroyer detecting subs, 1 cruiser detecting surface and air units, leaving 8 slots for Battleships. That can do a lot of damage to coastal targets and normal surface fleets.

      This is my go-to stack. My typical setup is 1 DD + 1 CL + 8 BB.

      2. Anti Air Stack.

      You're going to need this to support naval invasions, or counter surface fleets carrying naval bombers. In addition to the standard 1 destroyer + 1 cruiser, the AA stack has a mix of carriers and cruisers. Depending on your carrier research, that could mean 1-2 carriers with 8-10 Interceptors each, or 3-4 carriers with 4-6 interceptors. The rest is filled with 6-7 cruisers. They protect the fleet from bombers while the interceptors are away, or refueling. And the cruisers provide some bombardment ability against small groups of destroyers/subs.

      My typical setup is 1 DD + 8 CL + 1 CV carrying 10 interceptors. This is enough for most invasions. Assuming your opponent has similar research levels as you, the opponent would need 30+ naval bombers to stop you. If you're afraid of rockets, just add some HP in the form of transports (next). By the time the opponent builds enough rockets to sink your fleet, you should be able to take 1 province, build an air field, and move your interceptors. The carrier group has done its job, and it can go home.

      3. Meat Shield Stack.

      Research level 4 transports. Take a standard bombardment stack. Add 10 transports filled with cheap, disposable army units. That's an extra 250 HP in your navy stack. It's like an extra 5 battleships. You can now get into gun fights with fewer losses.

      4. The Nasty Surprise Stack.

      Take a stack of 10 submarines, and add 10 level 4 transports. You have just over-powered your submarines. A greedy opponent will see 10 undefended transports and rush in with their surface navy. Your subs will tear them to pieces. Even a good opponent, who knows how to detect subs, will get more than they bargained for. The transports can effectively double the HP of your submarines, making them more effective in battle. 10 destroyers attacking 10 subs + 10 level 4 transports, who do you think will win that fight?


      By specializing your stacks, you can beat enemies who follow more traditional tactics. The typical enemy stack looks like this: 5 DD + 3 CL + 2 BB. Your bombardment stack will tear it to pieces. If the enemy starts to load more battleships, you're going to run into something like this: 3 DD + 2 CL + 5 BB. Time to add some transport meat shields. When the opponent tries to copy you, stacking battleships, that's when you flip the script. Time for a Nasty Surprise stack of subs and transports, tearing his battleships to pieces.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by z00mz00m ().

    • z00mz00m wrote:

      1. Naval Bombers are no longer a must-have research.

      Playing against skilled opponents in 1.0 used to require an investment into naval bombers. With their limited range, it was difficult to get away with anything less than level 3-4, at which point the range became "reasonable" enough for an air grid. Less than that, and you ended up trucking bombers by land, because you could never build enough air fields. In the meantime, the enemy subs are decimating your surface ships. Now that destroyers can replace naval bombers for sub detection, bombers are not nearly as important as before.
      Naval bombers are still a must have!
      - They are fast, much faster than a destroyer. If you spot a submarine, there's no way that sub will escape your naval bomber web.
      - They are the most effective unit to take out unescorted convoy units. Too many players still send an invasion army with out naval support.
      - They are great scouts: if you scout your waypoints at sea regulary you can spot an invasion army 12 hours before it lands of your coast which gives you plenty of time to prepare your defense.


      z00mz00m wrote:

      2. Naval stacks only need 1 destroyer.

      The primary function of the destroyer is to detect the subs at a distance. Yes, they can fight. They are good at fighting subs, at close range, trading shots and eventually sinking. But once a sub is detected, all ships can fire on it. Why get into a close range battle? Shoot and scoot, shoot and scoot. The subs cannot catch you. Once you do some damage, they get even slower. I typically only need to shoot-and-scoot once or twice, then the subs drift closer slowly as they die under constant bombardment.
      This is all good in theory. In practice however 90% of the time when your navy is moving from point A to B you are offline as you are either asleep, at work or at school. So unless you have High Command your navy will run into subs at some point. That's the moment you will wish that you had more than 1 destroyer in your stack because it's the only unit that's standing between your capital ships and a lot of torpedo's.


      z00mz00m wrote:

      3. Easier to specialize.

      1 destroyer is the core of every naval stack. That leaves 9 more fighting spots, and 10 additional HP meat shields. Add 1 cruiser for the view range (have to see what's around you) and some AA cover. That leaves you with 8+10 slots left.
      Speciallizing your stack means that it leaves you open to an easy counter!
      Just like 1 (SP) AA isn't enough to protect a stack of 10 land units against 10 tactical and/or attack bombers it is fair to say that only one cruiser isn't enough to protect or disencourage your enemy from shredding your capital ships and or convoys with bombers.

      z00mz00m wrote:

      2. Anti Air Stack.

      You're going to need this to support naval invasions, or counter surface fleets carrying naval bombers. In addition to the standard 1 destroyer + 1 cruiser, the AA stack has a mix of carriers and cruisers. Depending on your carrier research, that could mean 1-2 carriers with 8-10 Interceptors each, or 3-4 carriers with 4-6 interceptors. The rest is filled with 6-7 cruisers. They protect the fleet from bombers while the interceptors are away, or refueling. And the cruisers provide some bombardment ability against small groups of destroyers/subs.

      My typical setup is 1 DD + 8 CL + 1 CV carrying 10 interceptors. This is enough for most invasions. Assuming your opponent has similar research levels as you, the opponent would need 30+ naval bombers to stop you. If you're afraid of rockets, just add some HP in the form of transports (next). By the time the opponent builds enough rockets to sink your fleet, you should be able to take 1 province, build an air field, and move your interceptors. The carrier group has done its job, and it can go home.
      The first paragraph is sound advice. No discussion about that. The second paragraph however,...
      Imagine a stack of 10 subs running into 8 cruisers and one destroyer. That won't be pretty! I mean don't get me wrong the cruiser stats aren't bad against subs but they still lose one on one. In the scenario that you described it's bye bye to your DD, 8 cruisers, carrier and 10 int's. That's a big blow in terms of resources, manpower and time investment. All your enemy needs is 10 cheap subs that will be heavily damaged afterwards but hey, they heal 15% at day change
      right.
      BMfox
      Moderator
      EN Community Support | Bytro Gmbh

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    • z00mz00m wrote:

      1. Bombardment Stack.

      The most basic, most universally applicable stack is bombardment. You have 1 destroyer detecting subs, 1 cruiser detecting surface and air units, leaving 8 slots for Battleships. That can do a lot of damage to coastal targets and normal surface fleets.

      This is my go-to stack. My typical setup is 1 DD + 1 CL + 8 BB.
      8 juicy battleships protected by only one destroyer and one cruiser. When I send in my cheap stack of 10 subs this fight will be over in no time. Not mentioning that my naval bombers will be joining the party too. If you thought to shoot at my subs and pull back half an hour, submarines are faster then battleships to that tactic will only delay the inevitable.


      z00mz00m wrote:

      3. Meat Shield Stack.

      Research level 4 transports. Take a standard bombardment stack. Add 10 transports filled with cheap, disposable army units. That's an extra 250 HP in your navy stack. It's like an extra 5 battleships. You can now get into gun fights with fewer losses.

      4. The Nasty Surprise Stack.

      Take a stack of 10 submarines, and add 10 level 4 transports. You have just over-powered your submarines. A greedy opponent will see 10 undefended transports and rush in with their surface navy. Your subs will tear them to pieces. Even a good opponent, who knows how to detect subs, will get more than they bargained for. The transports can effectively double the HP of your submarines, making them more effective in battle. 10 destroyers attacking 10 subs + 10 level 4 transports, who do you think will win that fight?
      This is very sound advice, never thought about it. I looked forward to test this.

      z00mz00m wrote:

      By specializing your stacks, you can beat enemies who follow more traditional tactics. The typical enemy stack looks like this: 5 DD + 3 CL + 2 BB. Your bombardment stack will tear it to pieces. If the enemy starts to load more battleships, you're going to run into something like this: 3 DD + 2 CL + 5 BB. Time to add some transport meat shields. When the opponent tries to copy you, stacking battleships, that's when you flip the script. Time for a Nasty Surprise stack of subs and transports, tearing his battleships to pieces.
      I like the way of thinking where you have a navy that's adaptable. However as argumented specializing leaves you weak to a counter.

      I like a one size fits all so this is what I do:
      5 destroyers, 5 cruisers, 5 battleships together in one stack
      SDBE is 10 so when any enemy navy is in sight those battleships and cruisers will bomb it to shreds.
      If the enemy thinks to send in subs. No he can't as 5 destroyers and 5 cruisers will take them out efficiently in mellee battle.
      With 5 cruisers you are pretty safe from air attack too, so there is your AA stack and nothing stops you from adding 5 carriers in there too with interceptors and or naval bombers.
      As a bombardment stack 5 battleships and 5 cruisers once you move into range more will to the trick just nicely.
      You think that stack is too big, you can easily split it up into:
      one stack of 2 DD, 3CL, 2BB andone of 3DD, 2CL, 3BB.

      In my experience one navy stack in that order will take out 99% of whatever your enemy sends at you. If you play against a pro: you might remember i talked about those 10 subs. I always have one or two stack of those around. So even when i meet a pro with a large strong navy imagine his ships locked in mellee combat by two stacks of 10 submarines while being pounded with 5 battleships and 5 cruisers not to mention those naval bombers I have too.

      Of course when we talk about a navy this size it's only possible in these quantities on a World at war 100p, Historical 25p or the Pacific 50p.
      BMfox
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      EN Community Support | Bytro Gmbh

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    • The whole point is you fight when you are active.
      That gives you the ability to pick and choose your battles.
      As an active player, what do you see?
      An ocean full of these random mix-tape stacks: 3 BB, 3, CL, 4, DD
      That just invites a broadside from 10 battleships.
      And it's done, sunk. On to the next mix stack or lone ship.
    • Until your Battleships run into or are chased down by a stack of 10 subs. You can't afford to lose that many capital ships whom represent a large investment. Better to protect them with destroyers. The day that you'll meet a player as active and smart as you, you'll wish you had destroyers when it's too late and your ships are sunk. As a rule of thumb i say one destroyer per battleship and one destroyer per two cruisers in a stack is a good defense against subs.
      BMfox
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      EN Community Support | Bytro Gmbh

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    • Very interesting topic.

      I'd like to add my own opinion and strategy that I use and look forward to see any comment about them.

      I think that your tactics on both of you are interesting and strong, but rely on massive numbers and up to date research levels. The levels are the first issue you need to upgrade your DD in priority and every other units, then to stay relevant in the naval power struggle. And some doctrines are better at some specific units that may cause issues in some scenarios. Upgrading is great but takes time and many resources (research and upgrade, even an ally player will find that's very costly) and also immobilises your fleets for 5 hours and so an skilled enemy can regroup and hit some isolated stacks or sneak subs by.

      The main point is resources to. Having a multiple stack navy is hard and with the best level everywhere is impossible. The naval templates you guys suggest are great, but achievable only in the late game. Being the aggressive player that I am having a 30 day plus game is already a defeat. And the cross-continental invasions happen around day 15-20 and at this point, nothing is ready cause the research, naval bases and production all use the 3 same resources (especially oil that you also need for tanks and planes) that will quickly be too expensive to buy and/or produce (because the industry needs oil to upgrade too).

      So I voluntarily don't use every unit and open myself to be countered by some units. My technique is spamming subs and carriers with naval bombers. The strategy is easy get subs everywhere to scout the enemy ports and get death stacks in striking distance of them. The carriers with naval bombers and subs can defeat any non cruiser/destroyer heavy stack that you encounter. Yes, when you will see some it's gonna be hard, but you have 2 choices then :

      Or you go towards your perfect naval setups so start doing BB and DD yourself basically doing your strategy.

      Or push him no matter what and go block his ports with subs in front of them so he can't build anything. This relies heavily on speed (killing his first fleets fast before he can adapt and then blocking his naval bases). The added benefits are that it's much more practicable and also it makes you build the units for the late game sub/naval bombers curtains to see invasions coming. The carriers are also key because they will ensure naval superiority against enemy naval bombers and help an ally D-day on another continent plus they are actually very strong in melee so don't hesitate to simply ram some enemy units going to you if weak enough.

      To conclude this post id say that CoW is about adapting and decision-making. Your strategy is strong, but not early-on because you can't do all at the same time (the meatshield is a great idea by still means one more research, but no cost and upgrade means good adaptability, I will try it out seems great).

      After all, this is completed I'd add the there is a human factor too, because you need to be active to win sure having the best naval groups help but you need to be active to backup your troops.

      I am open to any critics and suggestions about my personal strategy and my arguments.
    • 10 destroyers attacking 10 subs + 10 level 4 transports

      submarines cant win this destroyers will win

      level 5 submarine 81 hp 28 damage
      level 5 destroyer 109 hp 30 damage

      level 4 transports has 29 hp

      10 destroyer 1090 hp 300 damage

      10 subarmine 810 hp 280 damage
      10 transport 290 hp

      easy victory for destroyers
    • Undaunted wrote:

      10 destroyers attacking 10 subs + 10 level 4 transports

      submarines cant win this destroyers will win

      level 5 submarine 81 hp 28 damage
      level 5 destroyer 109 hp 30 damage

      level 4 transports has 29 hp

      10 destroyer 1090 hp 300 damage

      10 subarmine 810 hp 280 damage
      10 transport 290 hp

      easy victory for destroyers

      Interesting setup, but not realistic in my opinion. Researching and upgrading will cost too much.

      The point of the transport trick is that it costs almost nothing. Cheap research, NO upgrade cost.

      ZERO upgrades.

      If you can afford to max out every unit then you're back to rock-paper-scissors. That's not worth writing about.

      What's interesting to me is to think outside the box and finding ways to boost your units for cheap, or for free.
    • BMfox wrote:

      Until your Battleships run into or are chased down by a stack of 10 subs. You can't afford to lose that many capital ships whom represent a large investment. Better to protect them with destroyers. The day that you'll meet a player as active and smart as you, you'll wish you had destroyers when it's too late and your ships are sunk. As a rule of thumb i say one destroyer per battleship and one destroyer per two cruisers in a stack is a good defense against subs.

      Again, let me reiterate.

      I'm not writing about defense while you're offline. That's a separate topic.

      The way to win battles when you are online is to specialize your stacks, on land and on water. If you can accept that specializing works when you have the initiative, then stacks of submarines become easy targets.

      When your 1 DD spots the subs, you bombard them from a distance. Anything more than 1 DD is a waste because they can't fire from a distance. They just sit there. And if you go in close, then you're just wasting ships.

      Same thing on land. 1 AC to scout, 9 SP artillery to shoot. When the enemy goes towards you, move back. Pretty soon they are damaged and slow and then they die. You don't go 5 + 5 because then you're just shooting at half power. And you don't wait for the enemy to reach you because that's dumb.
    • z00mz00m wrote:

      The way to win battles when you are online is to specialize your stacks, on land and on water. If you can accept that specializing works when you have the initiative, then stacks of submarines become easy targets.
      How can a stack of submarines become an easy target if you don't have destroyers? Battleships can hurt a lone sub but will do little damage to a stack. Battleships are ment to be used to against other ships but are vounerable against subs. Your battleships are slower than subs so your retreat and shoot tactic won't work.

      z00mz00m wrote:

      I'm not writing about defense while you're offline. That's a separate topic.
      You are not online 24/7 so it's good practice to always have enough destroyers to protect your capital ships.

      z00mz00m wrote:

      When your 1 DD spots the subs, you bombard them from a distance. Anything more than 1 DD is a waste because they can't fire from a distance. They just sit there. And if you go in close, then you're just wasting ships.
      Just like subs, destroyers fight in melee battle and destroyers will defeat them. Your capital ships will lose health too but at least you won't lose them and they can heal again. If your ships are protected by enough destroyers it works discouraging as your enemy will move his subs elsewhere to lesser protected targets.
      BMfox
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    • My favorite stack so far with extreme success: (playing as PanAsian mind you)
      - 3 DDs
      - 5 BBs
      - 2 CVs

      All level 3-4-5 depending on upgrade and time in game. I've enjoyed great naval battles with this set up plus I would put stacks of interceptors and naval bombers on the CVs.

      Down side to this stack: Carrier bug has been rampant and I keep dropping ships so I am not using carriers until that is resolved. I dropped a stack of 10 and it got picked off later on :(
    • Tribunate wrote:

      My favorite stack so far with extreme success: (playing as PanAsian mind you)
      - 3 DDs
      - 5 BBs
      - 2 CVs

      All level 3-4-5 depending on upgrade and time in game. I've enjoyed great naval battles with this set up plus I would put stacks of interceptors and naval bombers on the CVs.

      Down side to this stack: Carrier bug has been rampant and I keep dropping ships so I am not using carriers until that is resolved. I dropped a stack of 10 and it got picked off later on :(
      I personally would swap one of the carriers for a cruiser due to the view range and the AA damage
    • whowh wrote:

      Tribunate wrote:

      My favorite stack so far with extreme success: (playing as PanAsian mind you)
      - 3 DDs
      - 5 BBs
      - 2 CVs

      All level 3-4-5 depending on upgrade and time in game. I've enjoyed great naval battles with this set up plus I would put stacks of interceptors and naval bombers on the CVs.

      Down side to this stack: Carrier bug has been rampant and I keep dropping ships so I am not using carriers until that is resolved. I dropped a stack of 10 and it got picked off later on :(
      I personally would swap one of the carriers for a cruiser due to the view range and the AA damage
      That's where the PanAsian interceptors come in :)
    • Tribunate wrote:

      whowh wrote:

      Tribunate wrote:

      My favorite stack so far with extreme success: (playing as PanAsian mind you)
      - 3 DDs
      - 5 BBs
      - 2 CVs

      All level 3-4-5 depending on upgrade and time in game. I've enjoyed great naval battles with this set up plus I would put stacks of interceptors and naval bombers on the CVs.

      Down side to this stack: Carrier bug has been rampant and I keep dropping ships so I am not using carriers until that is resolved. I dropped a stack of 10 and it got picked off later on :(
      I personally would swap one of the carriers for a cruiser due to the view range and the AA damage
      That's where the PanAsian interceptors come in
      Forgot about that.
    • Like anything else, one's mileage may vary. Whats the point of that stack, surface bombardment? Sure, you'll paste any one or two or 5 islands but you have to get up close to do it...and each island takes time. If all you have are surface ships, someone with several Carrier "task Forces" (think 2-3 CV's, 3 CA's, 6 Destroyers with CV/CA at level 4and destroyers at level 5) I'm going to be duck and dodging your stack all game long. Enough so that I can pick up any island that might get conquered as soon as that stack left the area.

      Now, if you put light scout aircraft back on BB's and CA's, you just might have a perfect little raiding division.
    • Danieliyoverde123 wrote:

      i think the optimal stack is 10 battleships, 10 cruiser and 10 destroyers
      How is that? Only 10 units can fight at the same time so having 20 ranged units is a bit overkill. Split that stack of yours in two and you have my perfect stack. By the time you produced 10 of each you'll probably be dead because you didn't build enough land and air units.
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