russ_russ1 wrote:
Claudio trying to defend a horrible dictator POV
The President
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russ_russ1 wrote:
Claudio trying to defend a horrible dictator POV
Claudio NVKP wrote:
The Government didn't preside on who wouldget shot in a war. Also, the warcrimes were after salazar.Carking the 6th wrote:
Either way, the Portuguese military slaughtered tens of thousands of civilians. You can’t really debate that regardless of your viewpoint.
The post was edited 5 times, last by Claudio NVKP ().
Claudio NVKP wrote:
You're literally contradicting yourself in the last point. Delete it. It's written there's no question of discrimination between the minorities.
I did accept the fact that 1 person was killed. Yes.
Also, i love how he presided on torture, mutilation, and executions happened after he died.
Also, the thought of bringing indigenous people to a mordern civilization, giving them education in the 1930's isn't disgusting. They were hunter gatherers. I don't see how this makes you a bad person for so. Of course they have their own culture and such. Assimilation wasn't forced either, it was gradual.
Also, I do not prefer he discussion to drag, so we can end it.
The post was edited 2 times, last by Claudio NVKP ().
Carking the 6th wrote:
“Salazar briefly served as minister of colonies before assuming the premiership, and in that capacity he prepared the Colonial Act of 1930,[112]which centralised the administration of the colonies in his own system and proclaimed the need to bring indigenous peoples into western civilization and the Portuguese nation.”
This is pretty disgusting. Bringing in people to your culture, who you exploited for hundreds of years? What makes your culture inherently superior to theirs? Crazy.
Talvisota wrote:
"Portugal continued to trade with Nazi Germany throughout the conflict and may have received gold looted in the Holocaust in exchange."
From the exact article you sent.
Even if Portugal did help a little, it doesn't at all excuse everything else that they did.
Talvisota wrote:
"However, Irene Flunser Pimentel argues "Portugal fell very short of what it could have done, only saving a tiny part of those who were threatened to be killed by the Nazis, and knowing that was their fate" and noted that repatriation of Portuguese Jews from German-occupied Europe was dependent on "rigorous proof of their nationality".[30] Tom Gallagher, Salazar's biographer, wrote that there is no doubt that far more people could have been rescued and saved if Salazar had had more time at his disposal to focus on the peril which European Jews had been cast into"
Also from the article you sent.
K.Rokossovski wrote:
Talvisota wrote:
"Portugal continued to trade with Nazi Germany throughout the conflict and may have received gold looted in the Holocaust in exchange."
From the exact article you sent.
Even if Portugal did help a little, it doesn't at all excuse everything else that they did.
Again, Portugal wasn't alone. After the true face of the Nazi started showing around 1936-1937 and Jews started fleeing the country, they were only welcome in countries like USA, UK, Netherlands, etc etc if they brought money; poor Jews had a very, very slim chance to get refuge anywhere.Talvisota wrote:
"However, Irene Flunser Pimentel argues "Portugal fell very short of what it could have done, only saving a tiny part of those who were threatened to be killed by the Nazis, and knowing that was their fate" and noted that repatriation of Portuguese Jews from German-occupied Europe was dependent on "rigorous proof of their nationality".[30] Tom Gallagher, Salazar's biographer, wrote that there is no doubt that far more people could have been rescued and saved if Salazar had had more time at his disposal to focus on the peril which European Jews had been cast into"
Also from the article you sent.
Neutral Switzerland almost certainly laundered more Holocaust money than Portugal did.
A big part of the German Panzer armies were made of Swedish iron ore.
Yugoslavia was offered a trade treaty which was actually pretty favorable to them. When they refused it (involving a coup and all kinds of Western fishing in muddy waters), their country was overrun and served four years of brutal oppression. Should all the countries who managed to stay neutral have done so?
K.Rokossovski wrote:
It is impossible to judge a statement like that from today's moral standards. But for comparison, ALL the colonial powers had varying flavors of this kind of reasoning. Their colonies were culturally backward and needed to be uplifted to the "higher" Western cultures (making some money off their back as well usually wasn't mentioned). This is not just Portuguese thinking; this is colonial thinking like was prevalent in the UK, France, Netherlands, Italy, etc etc. You can hardly blame him for holding such views.Carking the 6th wrote:
“Salazar briefly served as minister of colonies before assuming the premiership, and in that capacity he prepared the Colonial Act of 1930,[112]which centralised the administration of the colonies in his own system and proclaimed the need to bring indigenous peoples into western civilization and the Portuguese nation.”
This is pretty disgusting. Bringing in people to your culture, who you exploited for hundreds of years? What makes your culture inherently superior to theirs? Crazy.
K.Rokossovski wrote:
Hey russ, according to you, there were about 80 million horrible people in Germany in 1937 or even 1941 because everyone (some fringe groups aside) supported Hitler.
K.Rokossovski wrote:
Same is true for Putin today; the vast majority of Russians support him.
K.Rokossovski wrote:
Were you in Portugal at any particular point in time? Ah yeah, that Algarve resort were you spent a fornight on vacation... no, I mean, actually been there? Do you know anything about the situation at all? Or did you just hear someone say that he was a dictator, so you must yell like three times in a row now that anyone supporting him must automatically be a "horrible person"?
K.Rokossovski wrote:
Everyone is either a saint or a demon to you, right? Nicely black and white, don't even have to digest any information, you can just copy the hymn of the day, eat popcorn on the grandstand and yell "Boo"? Truth is, complicated matters are never black and white... I'm sure he did many bad things, but he also took the country from a medieval society all the way to a modern and prosperous nation, and only a few decades later, an equal partner in the EU. When you achieve that, yeah, you're sure to get your hands dirty somewhere along the way as well.
K.Rokossovski wrote:
Talvisota wrote:
"Portugal continued to trade with Nazi Germany throughout the conflict and may have received gold looted in the Holocaust in exchange."
From the exact article you sent.
Even if Portugal did help a little, it doesn't at all excuse everything else that they did.
Again, Portugal wasn't alone. After the true face of the Nazi started showing around 1936-1937 and Jews started fleeing the country, they were only welcome in countries like USA, UK, Netherlands, etc etc if they brought money; poor Jews had a very, very slim chance to get refuge anywhere.Talvisota wrote:
"However, Irene Flunser Pimentel argues "Portugal fell very short of what it could have done, only saving a tiny part of those who were threatened to be killed by the Nazis, and knowing that was their fate" and noted that repatriation of Portuguese Jews from German-occupied Europe was dependent on "rigorous proof of their nationality".[30] Tom Gallagher, Salazar's biographer, wrote that there is no doubt that far more people could have been rescued and saved if Salazar had had more time at his disposal to focus on the peril which European Jews had been cast into"
Also from the article you sent.
Neutral Switzerland almost certainly laundered more Holocaust money than Portugal did.
A big part of the German Panzer armies were made of Swedish iron ore.
Yugoslavia was offered a trade treaty which was actually pretty favorable to them. When they refused it (involving a coup and all kinds of Western fishing in muddy waters), their country was overrun and served four years of brutal oppression. Should all the countries who managed to stay neutral have done so?
Talvisota wrote:
Yeah to be fair Claudio, I am a little uncomfortable with you idolising a literal dictator....
Claudio NVKP wrote:
In the end, it's not that deep, Salazar isn't that bad as you potray him by nitpicking his mistakes. He ruled for a long amount of time, so there isn't a definite answer for his term. The last years were an outdated regime, while the first years was what was flourishing. He was the a ruthless dictator though.
Of course there will be something bad in 40 years?
Now to answer this
When did I talk about him? I rarely do. I endorse him, for the good things he's done for the country, yes. And his character, which you can understand by listening to his speeches.Talvisota wrote:
Yeah to be fair Claudio, I am a little uncomfortable with you idolising a literal dictator....
Now, what is your favourite ice cream flavour?
Claudio NVKP wrote:
In the end, it's that deep, Salazar is as bad as, if not worse you potray him by revealing his mistakes. He ruled for a long amount of time, so there is a definite answer for his term. The last years were an outdated regime, while the first years was what was flourishing (until they also became outdated). He was a ruthless dictator for sure.
Of course there will be many bad things in 40 years?
Now to answer this
When did I talk about him? I always do. I hate him, for the terrible things he's done to the country, yes. And his evil character, which you can understand by listening to his speeches.Talvisota wrote:
Yeah to be fair Claudio, I am a little uncomfortable with you idolising a literal dictator....
Now, what is your favourite ice cream flavour?
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