Too Much Bandwagoning!

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    • Too Much Bandwagoning!

      I'm a fairly new to Call of War, but have been playing WWII war games for 30+ years. Board game or computer game I have probably played it. So far I think this is quite a good game, but I think there are three main things holding this game back from being an all-time great. I will admit I don't have good solutions to many of these, but I will try to at least include a constructive suggestion or two.

      I should also mention that most of my experience applies to the World map, I have played very little on the older European maps, so bear that in mind.

      1) Too Much Bandwagoning!!! In foreign relations two terms are most often used to describe how states respond to a more powerful neighbor -balancing or bandwagoning. Here is a snippet from Wikipedia;

      "Realism predicts that states will bandwagon only when there is no possibility of building a balancing coalition or their geography makes balancing difficult (i.e. surrounded by enemies). Bandwagoning is considered to be dangerous because it allows a rival state to gain power.
      Bandwagoning is opposed to balancing, which calls for a state to prevent an aggressor from upsetting the balance of power."

      I see very little balancing in this game. You get a few mega alliances forming early, with very little disruption (except for those patsies with little to gain from the alliance configuration getting bored and going inactive). These alliance conquor swathes of interlocking territories with little thought to defense, because players rarely break their alliances. So once an alliance is locked in you get some ridiculous looking territorial configurations from states that should be competitors. I had one game where the three biggest powers formed an alliance because none were sure they could come out on top and most of the rest of the game was just a matter of cleaning up inactives and victimizing the outsiders.

      I find this disappointing because it makes what could be some amazingly fun diplomacy/politics in the world map sterile and frustrating. I can't tell you how many conversations I've opened with other nations trying to create a balancing coalition only to be rebuffed because they are BFF with the super-power. I've never played a war game with a community this dedicated to not caring if they win.

      I think some of this stems from the community not wanting a reputation as a "backstabber". That is sad, but probably surmountable. You can play your nations interest honestly without being a snake. Just don't commit to full BFF alliances. Make transactional deals instead and I think you would have a much more interesting game. There is only so much you can do about human nature so I think it is incumbent upon the developers to change the incentive system somewhat to help push things into a more dynamic direction.

      So here are some ideas of changes to the victory conditions/alliances system that might push things in a more dynamic direction.

      -- winner take all on the world maps: No points for anyone but the victor. There will be damn little point in bandwagoning forever if you know you gain nothing if you don't win. If that is too extreme (and even I admit it might be a bit much) maybe get only 1/3 or 1/2 points for anyone allied to the winner. Or full points to the winner and some type of significant reward to those that fought the eventual winner.
      -- no share maps alliances: The world map is not WWII and an existential fight for existence between competing ideological blocks. Why is every war total war? Does it really make sense for a nation to devote every resource to annihilating an enemy when they could make small gains then make peace? If you could not exist in a state of complete trust of your BFF's you would need to hold back troops for possible defense (like a real nation).
      -- Anonymous maps: Play in anonymous mode. Yo are only a country name, you don't know who is noob and who is experienced you obfuscate the game id's and make it as hard as possible to know anything other than that France made them an offer of non-aggression etc.

      2) On to my second item - Victory to the unemployed. There is too much reward in this real-time setting to being online all the time. It doesn't matter if you play smart if you have a busy day at work. By the time you are home you've lost. I really don't know how this could be mitigated and keep the real time flavor, but it is a significant detractor to keeping me and my friends (who are all old and have responsibilities) engaged.

      3) Gold Spiked games: I think this has been covered extensively elsewhere, but in my very first game (old eurpoean map) my neighbor bought himself 20 tac bombers on day 2. Needless to say, I almost never came back, except one other player assured me that was a rare occurence. I stuck it out and recruited a handful of my firneds to also give the developers money :) I think this is a bigger problem on the world maps as there are more players, so the odds of one jerk trying to buy himself a win increases. Sure the rest of the map may eventuially take him out, but it is no less annoying for the 7 other engaged players that got wiped early and now associate the game with the taste of bile this caused.

      I know there are many ideas floating out there on the forums for finding the right balance between letting the developers make money and keeping the game fun so people continue to play and new players stay, but I want to throw out one suggestion that I have not seen (possibly just because I have been around long enough to have seen everything on this topic.)

      ANTE games. Allow people to set up a game for an ante like poker. It costs 6000 gold to join for instance. 3000 from each player goes into the pool for the winners and 3000 of it is what can be spent on gold in the game. No one can spend more than 3000, and everyone has 3000 to spend. They can spend it whenever they like up front or dole it out for emergencies.

      One last comment before wrapping up this massive post. I know we will never get everyone to agree on one set of rules and each of us will have their own preferences, so maybe have more than one world map open at a time. Have one standard rule version open, but maintain one or two that have some variations of the above (or similar alternate rules to address other players concerns.)

      Sincerely,
      An enthusiastic, but often frustrated and disappointed new player
    • To some point you have a point with some of your points.

      But dont forget that every map is entirely different depending on the players.

      Sometimes diplomacy works great (like I got 10 countries to declare war on the absolute super power and nr1 in the world map... => -50% moral .... exit nr1 ... even his capital is only like 55-60% moral now)
      Sometimes diplomacy is useless, because players are too young to get it, lack skills and insight or simply 75% went inactive.

      Just keep playing, improve your skills, learn the tricks and stay alive on the forum to point out the issues that need to be dealt with.
    • You do have a point... although with some deceptive diplomacy you can join one alliance and turn others against themselves, or use anonymous articles and write in a different way than you usually write and turn others against their allies. I always say that diplomacy wins wars, but wars don't win diplomacy. Use it wisely.
      It's been a while
    • Yargelsnogger wrote:

      2) On to my second item - Victory to the unemployed. There is too much reward in this real-time setting to being online all the time. It doesn't matter if you play smart if you have a busy day at work. By the time you are home you've lost. I really don't know how this could be mitigated and keep the real time flavor, but it is a significant detractor to keeping me and my friends (who are all old and have responsibilities) engaged.
      Wrong. Completely wrong. I was speaking to @Sandevot yesterday on Skype. He's the second-best player. I'm in the Top 1000. I told him how I only log in once a day, and he was amazed how I hadn't lost any rounds. As long as you log in daily, it's more than enough.

      About the other points:
      1. I agree with point 1. Many people have 'Share Map' alliances just to prevent backstabbing. I don't like that. Maybe only available from day 7?
      The past is a foreign country.
    • Pablo22510 wrote:

      Yargelsnogger wrote:

      2) On to my second item - Victory to the unemployed. There is too much reward in this real-time setting to being online all the time. It doesn't matter if you play smart if you have a busy day at work. By the time you are home you've lost. I really don't know how this could be mitigated and keep the real time flavor, but it is a significant detractor to keeping me and my friends (who are all old and have responsibilities) engaged.
      Wrong. Completely wrong. I was speaking to @Sandevot yesterday on Skype. He's the second-best player. I'm in the Top 1000. I told him how I only log in once a day, and he was amazed how I hadn't lost any rounds. As long as you log in daily, it's more than enough.

      Everything is very simple. There are three ways to win the war:
      1. be twice as strong your opponent
      2. be twice smarter your opponent
      3. be twice as active as your opponent
      If you have the ability to do one thing from this list - you win. If nothing else - you lose.

      But you can not be twice as strong if the game has just begun. You can not be two times smarter if you play against an experienced player. In this case, your only way - to be more active. If you do not like it - then you have no chance of winning.

      It's my opinion.
    • Sandevot wrote:

      Pablo22510 wrote:

      Yargelsnogger wrote:

      2) On to my second item - Victory to the unemployed. There is too much reward in this real-time setting to being online all the time. It doesn't matter if you play smart if you have a busy day at work. By the time you are home you've lost. I really don't know how this could be mitigated and keep the real time flavor, but it is a significant detractor to keeping me and my friends (who are all old and have responsibilities) engaged.
      Wrong. Completely wrong. I was speaking to @Sandevot yesterday on Skype. He's the second-best player. I'm in the Top 1000. I told him how I only log in once a day, and he was amazed how I hadn't lost any rounds. As long as you log in daily, it's more than enough.
      Everything is very simple. There are three ways to win the war:
      1. be twice as strong your opponent
      2. be twice smarter your opponent
      3. be twice as active as your opponent
      If you have the ability to do one thing from this list - you win. If nothing else - you lose.

      But you can not be twice as strong if the game has just begun. You can not be two times smarter if you play against an experienced player. In this case, your only way - to be more active. If you do not like it - then you have no chance of winning.

      It's my opinion.
      That is an interesting way to put it. I'm usually the second option.
      It's been a while
    • Yes, well, sometimes (unless I'm playing with people from the forum) I can defend very, very efficiently by actually going on the offensive instead of playing defence (I once defended with 2 units and used the rest to invade his completely unguarded land: then I went back with my entire army and crushed his invading units!). If an enemy is stronger than I, I rely on bluff and outmanoeuvring the other armies until I capture his land. I often also rely on striking blows at him economically: I will give up a city if need be to capture a good food-producing or oil-producing province. This will render him unable to heal his units and he will not be able to produce new units. If I am surrounded (which doesn't normally happen since I use very fast tactics) I will bombard only one army on the road trying to destroy me with my entire air force and my SP artillery so that I can get out.

      Long answer, but I would say I'm pretty well off. I have only played one game against people on the Forum as the USA and was able to block three landings on my soil, when he outnumbered me almost 4 to 1.
      It's been a while
    • Sandevot wrote:

      Pablo22510 wrote:

      Yargelsnogger wrote:

      2) On to my second item - Victory to the unemployed. There is too much reward in this real-time setting to being online all the time. It doesn't matter if you play smart if you have a busy day at work. By the time you are home you've lost. I really don't know how this could be mitigated and keep the real time flavor, but it is a significant detractor to keeping me and my friends (who are all old and have responsibilities) engaged.
      Wrong. Completely wrong. I was speaking to @Sandevot yesterday on Skype. He's the second-best player. I'm in the Top 1000. I told him how I only log in once a day, and he was amazed how I hadn't lost any rounds. As long as you log in daily, it's more than enough.
      Everything is very simple. There are three ways to win the war:
      1. be twice as strong your opponent
      2. be twice smarter your opponent
      3. be twice as active as your opponent
      If you have the ability to do one thing from this list - you win. If nothing else - you lose.

      But you can not be twice as strong if the game has just begun. You can not be two times smarter if you play against an experienced player. In this case, your only way - to be more active. If you do not like it - then you have no chance of winning.

      It's my opinion.
      1. When I fight, I'm normally the same strength as my opponent.
      2. I'm the stupidest person you will ever meet.
      3. I'm half as active as 99% of my opponents.
      Yet I win 90% of the time. Why is this? Because I know where to attack. But not because I log in more. When I log in, I do stuff that no matter what happens in the next 24 hours, it will work. Then, when I log in 24 hours later, I repeat the same tactic. My tactics don't work when my opponent counterattacks well, but that doesn't tend to happen, 'cos once they see they're under attack, they just surrender and leave the game.
      The past is a foreign country.
    • 1) Too much bandwagoning. I sort of agree with you. There is IMO a lot of bandwagoning because a lot of players don't understand that their enemy is next to them and not on the other side of the map. They often won't attack the local competitors, bt team up and have lots of inclaves and exclave country(s) (parts). Often 1 player is a lot stronger than the others. First they help them and then they get screwed one by one. I blame the limited general military and diplomatic intellegence of the majorty of the players to not foresee what is obvious to happen within a few weeks. Most probably don't even know what victory conditions they have to fullfill to end the game. Tbh I never have players bandwagoning. They have to be able to stand on their own and create their own victories.

      Victory conditions should be made more clear (where does it say ingame that you can retire with 3 players?) if you want to stop the bandwagoning.

      Your example of the 3 best players teaming up and conquering the world is actually good team work from them. Unfortunately most other players don't have any understanding of what situation they are in and don't take any measures.

      Not being able to finish the map with 3 players will make it dull IMO. I for example don't see the fun of more fighting with only 2 or 3 players left and so far I have always tried to retire as soon as possible. 1 refused and made me cross to USA for 3 days and then 3 days of fighting to finish. No fun in having a game drag on. I'm against the 1 winner takes it all.

      - Shared vision between alliances is for me personaly a must if you want to coöperate. Or the mailbox will be overflowed in sharing what troops you have where, what they are doing, how many of the enemy you see, where they are going, what units exactly, how fast... If you don't want to share map you still have right of way.

      - Anonymous would be great. Not being able to see how your oponent plays will make it more fair. Usually I check the rankings of the local leaders. You can see how they do against other players, what units they make. So you can see if they, based on their combined military and economy stats, are any good for coöperation or just another one to invade.

      2) Victory to the unemployed. I agree, it's a RTS browser game. It's hard to avoid tbh.

      Pablo, Lets imagine you are playing your twin brother. he is just as smart as you and will therefor be at least just as strong as you. Now he has the ability to check this game for 2 minets every 3 hours, while you are absent for 10 hours almost every day (during daytime, not at night. At night you will be absent as well off course). I would say he has the advantage because of activity and therefor will win.

      Browser games like this favor players that can log in on a frequent basis, it is enevitably. Not saying their advantage shouldn't be restricted (or whatever you would like to do). Games like age of empires last only an hour and both players will be just as active during their game. (Although 1 may play 5 hours a day to become a beast, while the other may only play 5 hours/week.) In a browser game time is pretty valuable. Especially before you managed to create a big buffer of non-core provinces around your core.

      3) Gold spiked games.

      Yes, victory to the massive gold users ;) . There should be something implemented that restricts the insane power of mass gold usage. Suggestions have been made in other toppics.
    • Pablo22510 wrote:

      Yet I win 90% of the time. Why is this? Because I know where to attack. But not because I log in more. When I log in, I do stuff that no matter what happens in the next 24 hours, it will work. Then, when I log in 24 hours later, I repeat the same tactic. My tactics don't work when my opponent counterattacks well, but that doesn't tend to happen, 'cos once they see they're under attack, they just surrender and leave the game.
      I would be very interested to hear what "stuff" you do where it doesn't matter what happens in the next 24 hours. Maybe once you are huge and no one can reach your core that is possible, but until then...? If there is a ny truth to your statement then you need better opponents.


      Azkazan wrote:

      Victory conditions should be made more clear (where does it say ingame that you can retire with 3 players?) if you want to stop the bandwagoning.

      Your example of the 3 best players teaming up and conquering the world is actually good team work from them. Unfortunately most other players don't have any understanding of what situation they are in and don't take any measures.
      Wouldn't one of those 3 have to get to 3323 on his own (or whatever the 60% condition is)? If it's up to 3 people can share a 60% win, then my reaction was out of proportion.
    • Yargelsnogger wrote:

      I would be very interested to hear what "stuff" you do where it doesn't matter what happens in the next 24 hours. Maybe once you are huge and no one can reach your core that is possible, but until then...? If there is a ny truth to your statement then you need better opponents.
      Simply move my troops to places and with coordination in a way my opponents can't get to undefended territory without taking out two of my stacks.
      The past is a foreign country.
    • I have a WW2 wargaming history, so I was intrigued to play this game. 22 player game, and it was quickly apparent there were 4 (maybe 5) active players at day 3. One or two is in the US.

      3 are in Europe. Germany and Romania/Yugoslavia. Through spying I knew Yugoslavia and Germany had formed an alliance.

      Germany, having a tiny disputed border built up some troops and attacked me on day 3 (ignoring pretty much all the inactive countries). I was trying to expand into the minor countries. I saw the attack right away, but he retreated after I spent over half my free gold that would've slaughtered his stacks. I then offered an alliance to Yugoslavia vs Germany to see if logic was present in this game. Germany clearly had a huge strategic advantage. He responded by invading my undefended side without a reply.

      At that moment, I knew this is not the game for me to continue playing after this one ends.

      I sent a message to Germany to conquer me. I then plowed through Yugoslavia's capital with my stacks on my way to the sea.

      I've watched them continue to not fight each other as they, extremely slowly, take provinces. It's 7 days later. Probably no rush since they are clearly not worried about attacking each other.

      Absolutely no fun could be involved in this, which tells me this game is seriously broken. I'm guessing they are doing the equivalent of gold farming for their ranking or something. Truly bizarre how anyone could call that fun.

      Problems:
      This is RTS (24/7) on the timescale of frozen molasses. I like a nice leisurely pace, but this is ridiculous.

      (Obviously) Gold can change a game in an instant (I did it without any effort because I had 10k gold to blow!)

      The OP complaint about bandwagoning happened in this game of basically 3 players, and I will assume that Yugoslavia will be happy with getting a distant second or third place? He has zero shot of coming back to win. He also never rebuilt the capital I destroyed a week ago and his provinces are all hurting for morale. (is this really happening in a supposedly legit game of war?)

      Since this is a reply way down an aging thread, I'll assume few reads, but I had to vent.
    • Many, many maps are played very poorly by most players in them. Most do not take it seriously enough to spend mental effort to actually figure out the winning ideas strategically and diplomatically. Some spam gold, some spam online time, some spam both; nary a thought between actions taken.

      Most players simply quit, or are so inactive as to not make a difference... I believe a rating system needs to be implemented to match people together over a set of characteristics:
      1) Typical gold spent per game
      2) Typical time spent playing per map per day
      3) Victories (using some form of ranking system).

      If people were matched together into maps along those three axes, the gameplay would improve dramatically.
    • In this game, during the early game, the defender has a huge advantage. Nearly all of the units you can start with or make early on are defensive. There is really no excuse for an open border next to a human player. in elite games its dangerous to even have open borders next to AI because AI will attack if you don't defend.

      Gold makes an ok impact early game but is pretty much useless later. you don't get much gold from winning games.

      So many players quit because the game is too complicated for most people and it requires an attention span. That is good for the rest of us because we don't have to play against really bad competition.

      Your first game is likely to have more quitters than normal because it is a bunch of other newbs you're facing. Other players can join newb games but you can see who you're playing before joining.

      Playing elite games/gold games has much better AI. The AI is good enough to beat a decent amount of human players. If the human player is aggressive, the AI is more aggressive with him. Human players quit less in gold/elite games than normal games because better players are playing them.