true, try the tricks yourself! its not very easy
Artillery Deploy Time and Packing up time
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There will still be many uses. You can use it to soften up enemies before an attack. You don't have to use it to shoot and scoot.
Tgufyru wrote:
Thing is if you nerf artillery like this nobody is going to use it, everyone would just use tanks.scuffed wrote:
we are trying to make the game balanced. If everyone is using the same "strategy" of shoot n scooting that doesn't make the gameplay fun or diverse, just who exploits this the most wins. If you have one play style like this then everyone will forget about using any other unit because why use them when you can spam arty and shoot n scoot while taking no damage.
BMfox wrote:
Why are we discussing the same thing in two different threads anyways?
Remember that most players in COW aren't super active. They chose Axis as a doctrine, stack infantry with tanks, send them on a long march and try to overrun their enemy by login in only twice a day. If an artillery buff would be introduced they would actually have a chance to win with their offline tactic. The point of using artillery is having to be proactive and micro manage.
Everyone in this game has the same toolbox. Tank lovers only use one tool with one function that fits all while other players chose to use a multifunktional tool with which they can do a better job. Now you are shouting "oh they use a better tool then me, please make their tool worse. You could simply also grab the multifunktional tool in your toolbox you know.
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The point is that almost all good units in game have a setback except for artillery. For example, tactical and attack bombers, two of the best units in game need to refuel and need to operate from airfields. If everyone starts to rely on one tactic to win, how is the game fun anymore. Although, I can adapt to these tactics, some newer players will find it as an hostile environment. I suggest that SP Arty will have a much shorter pack up time of five minutes, but artillery will have a 20 minutes pack up time. The damage values won't be nerfed at all, even though it should be. It would still be good unit if you know how to use it.
BMfox wrote:
The game is balanced, everyone has access to the same units.scuffed wrote:
we are trying to make the game balanced. If everyone is using the same "strategy" of shoot n scooting that doesn't make the gameplay fun or diverse, just who exploits this the most wins. If you have one play style like this then everyone will forget about using any other unit because why use them when you can spam arty and shoot n scoot while taking no damage.
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The setback of artillery is that it's slow and very week in melee battle. So you have a fair chance in catching and killing them. They are also very vounerable against air attack. I think that's enough weaknesses. It's not because most players don't use artillery or use them in a wrong manner that players whom did the effort to master artillery mechanics should be punished. That's like the other world around.BMfox
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Check out my YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/c/BMfoxCallofWar
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and that is another reason to use sp artillery, it adds the dynamic of being able to move and attack fast.
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"The setback of artillery is that it's slow and very week in melee battle." - Like i said, they will have other units grouped up with them in case you get too close for comfort to send them to defend the arty, then group them back up with the arty when your units are dead.
BMfox wrote:
The setback of artillery is that it's slow and very week in melee battle. So you have a fair chance in catching and killing them. They are also very vounerable against air attack. I think that's enough weaknesses. It's not because most players don't use artillery or use them in a wrong manner that players whom did the effort to master artillery mechanics should be punished. That's like the other world around.
"They are also very vounerable against air attack." - They are going to have AA with their arty as well as the other units for melee attack protection as i mentioned above. So this won't work either unless you want to waste all your bombers on one single stack of units.
This type of playstyle should be punished with set up time and pack up time so they can't boil down a strategy game to using this one mechanic the entire time cause it has pretty much a 100% success rate with barely anything you can do to stop it. Not good game balancing to have one tactic that rises above all else. There should be a risk factor when trying to deploy arty, like "if i deploy it this close to their frontlines i could get flanked and get my arty destroyed, but if they dont i can destroy this fortified position." This will add more dynamic to the game with you having to calculate more outcomes and make arty an actual strategical component. -
Well you are supposed to have different unit branches in your stack as well to balance out the weaknesses. That's hardly an argument. Your whole proposal is a nerf so that you can be able to kill artillery stacks. Well you can with an artillery stack of your own and with bombers.
scuffed wrote:
"The setback of artillery is that it's slow and very week in melee battle." - Like i said, they will have other units grouped up with them in case you get too close for comfort to send them to defend the arty, then group them back up with the arty when your units are dead.
Yes of course, because every player uses AA right. So basicly you want to nerf artillery because you haven't found the answer on how to counter an artillery stack? Well all the units that protect artillery stacks are unarmored: anti tank, anti air, infantry, artillery. Make a stack of motorized and mechanize infantry and lock those arty in mêlée battle. Now that the stack is locked in mêlée battle you can bring in your own artillery and bombard it to oblivion.scuffed wrote:
"They are also very vounerable against air attack." - They are going to have AA with their arty as well as the other units for melee attack protection as i mentioned above. So this won't work either unless you want to waste all your bombers on one single stack of units.
BMfox
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EN Community Support | Bytro Gmbh
Check out my YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/c/BMfoxCallofWar
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Motorized infantry gets annihilated usually by these unarmored units. Unless you want to send 30 motorized units straight into an artillery stack with half of them coming out intact. Almost every ground unit is vulnerable to planes, so don't act like artillery is the only unit. Almost every powerful unit in game has a more concrete setback in a sense. We're not even asking for artillery damage values to be nerfed, we're just asking for a nerf that will have only make it slightly weaker. Artillery will still be a good unit that takes skill and precision to use. Many people will still use artillery to destroy large stacks of troops.
BMfox wrote:
Well you are supposed to have different unit branches in your stack as well to balance out the weaknesses. That's hardly an argument. Your whole proposal is a nerf so that you can be able to kill artillery stacks. Well you can with an artillery stack of your own and with bombers.scuffed wrote:
"The setback of artillery is that it's slow and very week in melee battle." - Like i said, they will have other units grouped up with them in case you get too close for comfort to send them to defend the arty, then group them back up with the arty when your units are dead.
Yes of course, because every player uses AA right. So basicly you want to nerf artillery because you haven't found the answer on how to counter an artillery stack? Well all the units that protect artillery stacks are unarmored: anti tank, anti air, infantry, artillery. Make a stack of motorized and mechanize infantry and lock those arty in mêlée battle. Now that the stack is locked in mêlée battle you can bring in your own artillery and bombard it to oblivion.scuffed wrote:
"They are also very vounerable against air attack." - They are going to have AA with their arty as well as the other units for melee attack protection as i mentioned above. So this won't work either unless you want to waste all your bombers on one single stack of units.
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its like you are ignoring everything i said. You can't use bombers because of AA, you cant rush them down because they will just kite you down with the arty and the speed reduction from damaged armies, and if you even have the chance to get close, they will just break away a small force to destroy your already pummeled stack, and engage them in melee combat while their arty stays behind safely continuously bombing your division. Then after you attack fails, they group it all back up and rinse and repeat. This is just going to turn the game into War of the Artillery, whoever has the most and can kite better wins.
BMfox wrote:
Well you are supposed to have different unit branches in your stack as well to balance out the weaknesses. That's hardly an argument. Your whole proposal is a nerf so that you can be able to kill artillery stacks. Well you can with an artillery stack of your own and with bombers.scuffed wrote:
"The setback of artillery is that it's slow and very week in melee battle." - Like i said, they will have other units grouped up with them in case you get too close for comfort to send them to defend the arty, then group them back up with the arty when your units are dead.
Yes of course, because every player uses AA right. So basicly you want to nerf artillery because you haven't found the answer on how to counter an artillery stack? Well all the units that protect artillery stacks are unarmored: anti tank, anti air, infantry, artillery. Make a stack of motorized and mechanize infantry and lock those arty in mêlée battle. Now that the stack is locked in mêlée battle you can bring in your own artillery and bombard it to oblivion.scuffed wrote:
"They are also very vounerable against air attack." - They are going to have AA with their arty as well as the other units for melee attack protection as i mentioned above. So this won't work either unless you want to waste all your bombers on one single stack of units.
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Honestly scuffed does make valid point."I don't know jeff!"
Chris kamara -
the thing is when you are fighting, you would have similar amount of troops (if not your losing in that battle ofc) lets say each has 30 divs ,
scuffed wrote:
its like you are ignoring everything i said. You can't use bombers because of AA, you cant rush them down because they will just kite you down with the arty and the speed reduction from damaged armies, and if you even have the chance to get close, they will just break away a small force to destroy your already pummeled stack, and engage them in melee combat while their arty stays behind safely continuously bombing your division. Then after you attack fails, they group it all back up and rinse and repeat. This is just going to turn the game into War of the Artillery, whoever has the most and can kite better wins.BMfox wrote:
Well you are supposed to have different unit branches in your stack as well to balance out the weaknesses. That's hardly an argument. Your whole proposal is a nerf so that you can be able to kill artillery stacks. Well you can with an artillery stack of your own and with bombers.scuffed wrote:
"The setback of artillery is that it's slow and very week in melee battle." - Like i said, they will have other units grouped up with them in case you get too close for comfort to send them to defend the arty, then group them back up with the arty when your units are dead.
Yes of course, because every player uses AA right. So basicly you want to nerf artillery because you haven't found the answer on how to counter an artillery stack? Well all the units that protect artillery stacks are unarmored: anti tank, anti air, infantry, artillery. Make a stack of motorized and mechanize infantry and lock those arty in mêlée battle. Now that the stack is locked in mêlée battle you can bring in your own artillery and bombard it to oblivion.scuffed wrote:
"They are also very vounerable against air attack." - They are going to have AA with their arty as well as the other units for melee attack protection as i mentioned above. So this won't work either unless you want to waste all your bombers on one single stack of units.
enemy= 10 arty , 5 at, 5aa, 10 inf
you= 10 ac, 10 mot inf , 10 mech inf/(10 more mot inf)
you are faster ofc ( except for mountains don’t engage there it’s suicidal).
so, you chase him within (2 attack round) 1 hour and he needs to sack troops. (ac is half heatlh from barrage)
He would send out his inf and at, since you have 3 10 stack it shouldn’t be a problem its 30 against 15 you might take another 1 hour and a half to get through now your ac is dead( he only landed 2 shots cuz he needs to retreat) mot inf and mech inf is 3/4. You shouldn’t have a problem chasing his 10 arty and 5 aa , maybe he landed one extra shot (your forced marching) now mech inf at 3/8 , mot inf 5/8. AND you finally caught his arty ,(aa is useless in melee combat , it would just get one-shotted so i left that out) Then, here it shouldn’t be a problem as arty has trash defence stats. -
like I said before, nobody would be willing to put 20 aa in an arty stack,when they split off to protect the arty, attack the one with little to no aa.
scuffed wrote:
its like you are ignoring everything i said. You can't use bombers because of AA, you cant rush them down because they will just kite you down with the arty and the speed reduction from damaged armies, and if you even have the chance to get close, they will just break away a small force to destroy your already pummeled stack, and engage them in melee combat while their arty stays behind safely continuously bombing your division. Then after you attack fails, they group it all back up and rinse and repeat. This is just going to turn the game into War of the Artillery, whoever has the most and can kite better wins.BMfox wrote:
Well you are supposed to have different unit branches in your stack as well to balance out the weaknesses. That's hardly an argument. Your whole proposal is a nerf so that you can be able to kill artillery stacks. Well you can with an artillery stack of your own and with bombers.scuffed wrote:
"The setback of artillery is that it's slow and very week in melee battle." - Like i said, they will have other units grouped up with them in case you get too close for comfort to send them to defend the arty, then group them back up with the arty when your units are dead.
Yes of course, because every player uses AA right. So basicly you want to nerf artillery because you haven't found the answer on how to counter an artillery stack? Well all the units that protect artillery stacks are unarmored: anti tank, anti air, infantry, artillery. Make a stack of motorized and mechanize infantry and lock those arty in mêlée battle. Now that the stack is locked in mêlée battle you can bring in your own artillery and bombard it to oblivion.scuffed wrote:
"They are also very vounerable against air attack." - They are going to have AA with their arty as well as the other units for melee attack protection as i mentioned above. So this won't work either unless you want to waste all your bombers on one single stack of units.
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The main purpose I do not like artillery is not because I cannot adapt to artillery. In real life innovative strategies often won battles for many of the greatest generals and conquerors. Overpowered artillery units completely stamps out the use of innovative tactics. A good strategy game should encourage players to use different troop compositions to beat the opponent. Although, 1.5 was mostly a good update in my opinion. Artillery was turned into an op unit, it dealt much more damage than before. Many of you may claim that nerfing artillery will cause nobody to use it. That is not true at all because artillery was used commonly in game. It was a good unit that took effort and skill to use. I wish to see more and more innovative tactics used in Call of War in the future. Almost in ever game, I see that over half the players only use the units, Artillery, Rocket Artillery, RRG, SP Artillery, and SP Rocket Artillery. This creates an extremely toxic environment for most players to win a game. Most players just want to have a normal satisfying game, but their own tactics are often stamped out by artillery spammers who have 25 unit artillery stacks. Many players are forced to respond similarly and also spam artillery. The lack of new tactics and troop composition makes me bored.
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Ordnance and regular infantry are cheap, while mot inf and mech inf are more expensive. Your telling me to use 40 units to kill 30 much cheaper units. Its not worth trade. I will lose at least 10 units trying to kill the stack, and in the end my units will be damaged and crippled, then the enemy just brings up another stack. Thats only if he doesn't move at all, if he scoots and shoots, two words, your f***ed. You will end up losing 20-30 units.
Tgufyru wrote:
the thing is when you are fighting, you would have similar amount of troops (if not your losing in that battle ofc) lets say each has 30 divs ,enemy= 10 arty , 5 at, 5aa, 10 infscuffed wrote:
its like you are ignoring everything i said. You can't use bombers because of AA, you cant rush them down because they will just kite you down with the arty and the speed reduction from damaged armies, and if you even have the chance to get close, they will just break away a small force to destroy your already pummeled stack, and engage them in melee combat while their arty stays behind safely continuously bombing your division. Then after you attack fails, they group it all back up and rinse and repeat. This is just going to turn the game into War of the Artillery, whoever has the most and can kite better wins.BMfox wrote:
Well you are supposed to have different unit branches in your stack as well to balance out the weaknesses. That's hardly an argument. Your whole proposal is a nerf so that you can be able to kill artillery stacks. Well you can with an artillery stack of your own and with bombers.scuffed wrote:
"The setback of artillery is that it's slow and very week in melee battle." - Like i said, they will have other units grouped up with them in case you get too close for comfort to send them to defend the arty, then group them back up with the arty when your units are dead.
Yes of course, because every player uses AA right. So basicly you want to nerf artillery because you haven't found the answer on how to counter an artillery stack? Well all the units that protect artillery stacks are unarmored: anti tank, anti air, infantry, artillery. Make a stack of motorized and mechanize infantry and lock those arty in mêlée battle. Now that the stack is locked in mêlée battle you can bring in your own artillery and bombard it to oblivion.scuffed wrote:
"They are also very vounerable against air attack." - They are going to have AA with their arty as well as the other units for melee attack protection as i mentioned above. So this won't work either unless you want to waste all your bombers on one single stack of units.
you= 10 ac, 10 mot inf , 10 mech inf/(10 more mot inf)
you are faster ofc ( except for mountains don’t engage there it’s suicidal).
so, you chase him within (2 attack round) 1 hour and he needs to sack troops. (ac is half heatlh from barrage)
He would send out his inf and at, since you have 3 10 stack it shouldn’t be a problem its 30 against 15 you might take another 1 hour and a half to get through now your ac is dead( he only landed 2 shots cuz he needs to retreat) mot inf and mech inf is 3/4. You shouldn’t have a problem chasing his 10 arty and 5 aa , maybe he landed one extra shot (your forced marching) now mech inf at 3/8 , mot inf 5/8. AND you finally caught his arty ,(aa is useless in melee combat , it would just get one-shotted so i left that out) Then, here it shouldn’t be a problem as arty has trash defence stats.
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Thing is that stack is slow but yours is fast. You can use encirclement tactics since they wont be able to catch up then attack from multiple directions forcing them to split if they decide to attack all at once, resulting in less damage taken. That is if you know how to split your troops too. If the other dude knows how to stack an unstoppable army like that then its just that he's skilled. You also need to realise how long it takes to send non motorized ordnance to the fronts. And after they split the troops, thats when you can send in the planes since their AA is weakened due to spliting up.
vietcong2005 wrote:
Ordnance and regular infantry are cheap, while mot inf and mech inf are more expensive. Your telling me to use 40 units to kill 30 much cheaper units. Its not worth trade. I will lose at least 10 units trying to kill the stack, and in the end my units will be damaged and crippled, then the enemy just brings up another stack. Thats only if he doesn't move at all, if he scoots and shoots, two words, your f***ed. You will end up losing 20-30 units.Tgufyru wrote:
the thing is when you are fighting, you would have similar amount of troops (if not your losing in that battle ofc) lets say each has 30 divs ,enemy= 10 arty , 5 at, 5aa, 10 infyou= 10 ac, 10 mot inf , 10 mech inf/(10 more mot inf)scuffed wrote:
its like you are ignoring everything i said. You can't use bombers because of AA, you cant rush them down because they will just kite you down with the arty and the speed reduction from damaged armies, and if you even have the chance to get close, they will just break away a small force to destroy your already pummeled stack, and engage them in melee combat while their arty stays behind safely continuously bombing your division. Then after you attack fails, they group it all back up and rinse and repeat. This is just going to turn the game into War of the Artillery, whoever has the most and can kite better wins.BMfox wrote:
Well you are supposed to have different unit branches in your stack as well to balance out the weaknesses. That's hardly an argument. Your whole proposal is a nerf so that you can be able to kill artillery stacks. Well you can with an artillery stack of your own and with bombers.scuffed wrote:
"The setback of artillery is that it's slow and very week in melee battle." - Like i said, they will have other units grouped up with them in case you get too close for comfort to send them to defend the arty, then group them back up with the arty when your units are dead.
Yes of course, because every player uses AA right. So basicly you want to nerf artillery because you haven't found the answer on how to counter an artillery stack? Well all the units that protect artillery stacks are unarmored: anti tank, anti air, infantry, artillery. Make a stack of motorized and mechanize infantry and lock those arty in mêlée battle. Now that the stack is locked in mêlée battle you can bring in your own artillery and bombard it to oblivion.scuffed wrote:
"They are also very vounerable against air attack." - They are going to have AA with their arty as well as the other units for melee attack protection as i mentioned above. So this won't work either unless you want to waste all your bombers on one single stack of units.
you are faster ofc ( except for mountains don’t engage there it’s suicidal).
so, you chase him within (2 attack round) 1 hour and he needs to sack troops. (ac is half heatlh from barrage)
He would send out his inf and at, since you have 3 10 stack it shouldn’t be a problem its 30 against 15 you might take another 1 hour and a half to get through now your ac is dead( he only landed 2 shots cuz he needs to retreat) mot inf and mech inf is 3/4. You shouldn’t have a problem chasing his 10 arty and 5 aa , maybe he landed one extra shot (your forced marching) now mech inf at 3/8 , mot inf 5/8. AND you finally caught his arty ,(aa is useless in melee combat , it would just get one-shotted so i left that out) Then, here it shouldn’t be a problem as arty has trash defence stats.
Btw around what in game day are we talking about here? Like mid game or endgame? And winning or losing position -
obsolete diskussion.
Player without skills cry for nerfing a weak (if use solo) unit, wich is strong only in great numbers and with another numbers of closecombat and antiairdeffend units.
Also, even if nerfed, then artillery will be used in huge numbers instead of large numbers. Another unskilled player will come and cry.
I killed once 22er doomstack of 10 inf, 10 lt, 2 ht with single artillery. That was 10x speed event game, and enemy send his huge stacks for longruns while being offline 4+ ingamedays.
Sorry. That is not imballance of units.
Question is offline taktik vs online taktik. But it seems nobody want nerfing of onliners: my proposals to make 50% speed events for depowering of online taktiks was not supported by players, even by those who can not afford many online time for this game.
50% speed is "too slow" for them, they are ready to loose and cry for nerfing, instead try to play such "slow" events. -
I will let you know how ordnance takes A BIG TOLL on goods in the long run as you play, especially when playing with Pan-Asian doctrine.
vietcong2005 wrote:
Ordnance and regular infantry are cheap...
Also, most talented players I have seen winning the game utilize planes rather than artillery anyways. Once tactical bombers reach enough upgrades and are produced in an insane amount, even 10 units of anti-air in a stack will not do enough damage. Note that this anti-air may not be upgraded much as the player in concern prioritizes other updates.
Shoot and scoot tactics are also applied to battleship battles as well, and are mostly used by players who tend to be active for many hours in a day. Such players are few and far in between in random battles, so check out player statistics to make a good judgment on what strategy to use.
Frankly enough, most players do not use enough rocket artillery - so when fighting against a stack of mostly artillery it will be OK to use a stack of upgraded light tanks/mech infantry. Arti damage is not as bad for light armor/infantry when compared to rocket arti - which again is not being utilized much.
No need to remove scoot and shoot. It should be left with the player to make them interested in having artillery as part of their tactics in conquest.
Want to discourage other players from using this strategy while you are offline? Why not use railroad gun as part of your defensive stack lol. A hit from those will surely discourage players from sending in their artillery anyways. -
Well it was far weaker in 1.0 yet nobody really cared. It barely dealt 2 hitpoints in unarmored and it almost dealt no damage in the rest of the category. How would nerfing artillery weaken it? It would still be a prominent unit. The people using artillery are actually the ones with no skill. They could stay completely offline and when the enemy attacks, they're almost guaranteed to lose 40%-50% units. Shooting and scooting only makes it worse. The packing up time gives the player a small chance to at least kill the artillery unit. If you claim that you have so much "skill", then how would packing up be of great consequence? It won't matter anyways because it would only take 20 minutes to pack up. It wouldn't really affect your "skill" because most people don't live in their mother's basement. Furthermore, if you have so much "skill" go and try some other tactics to the win, not just artillery spam. On an ending note, you can use your "skill" to improve your spelling.
Last Warrior wrote:
obsolete diskussion.
Player without skills cry for nerfing a weak (if use solo) unit, wich is strong only in great numbers and with another numbers of closecombat and antiairdeffend units.
Also, even if nerfed, then artillery will be used in huge numbers instead of large numbers. Another unskilled player will come and cry.
I killed once 22er doomstack of 10 inf, 10 lt, 2 ht with single artillery. That was 10x speed event game, and enemy send his huge stacks for longruns while being offline 4+ ingamedays.
Sorry. That is not imballance of units.
Question is offline taktik vs online taktik. But it seems nobody want nerfing of onliners: my proposals to make 50% speed events for depowering of online taktiks was not supported by players, even by those who can not afford many online time for this game.
50% speed is "too slow" for them, they are ready to loose and cry for nerfing, instead try to play such "slow" events.
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My stratergies depend on speed and mobility, I don't want a cumbersome railroad gun dragging my army.
chrisgarci wrote:
I will let you know how ordnance takes A BIG TOLL on goods in the long run as you play, especially when playing with Pan-Asian doctrine.vietcong2005 wrote:
Ordnance and regular infantry are cheap...
Also, most talented players I have seen winning the game utilize planes rather than artillery anyways. Once tactical bombers reach enough upgrades and are produced in an insane amount, even 10 units of anti-air in a stack will not do enough damage. Note that this anti-air may not be upgraded much as the player in concern prioritizes other updates.
Shoot and scoot tactics are also applied to battleship battles as well, and are mostly used by players who tend to be active for many hours in a day. Such players are few and far in between in random battles, so check out player statistics to make a good judgment on what strategy to use.
Frankly enough, most players do not use enough rocket artillery - so when fighting against a stack of mostly artillery it will be OK to use a stack of upgraded light tanks/mech infantry. Arti damage is not as bad for light armor/infantry when compared to rocket arti - which again is not being utilized much.
No need to remove scoot and shoot. It should be left with the player to make them interested in having artillery as part of their tactics in conquest.
Want to discourage other players from using this strategy while you are offline? Why not use railroad gun as part of your defensive stack lol. A hit from those will surely discourage players from sending in their artillery anyways.
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I would like to emphasize on this:
vietcong2005 wrote:
My stratergies depend on speed and mobility, I don't want a cumbersome railroad gun dragging my army.
Defensive stack. AKA that crucial part of your defensive strategy to avoid getting rekt by artillery. I really had to think unconventional strategies when fighting such stacks when they are online, lol.Want to discourage other players from using this strategy while you are offline? Why not use railroad gun as part of your defensive stack lol. A hit from those will surely discourage players from sending in their artillery anyways.
You emphasized it yourself that your "stratergy" involves speed and mobility, so why ignore the points I made in my earlier comment about countering artillery units with speed.
This also holds true for any other player to always find ways to counter such strategies, and honestly it will be such utter foolishness if you know this kind of tactic is being used while you can only whine and not find genuine steps to counter such tactic.Furthermore, if you have so much "skill" go and try some other tactics to the win, not just artillery spam. On an ending note, you can use your "skill" to improve your spelling.
If you find artilleries that irritating with shoot and scoot, then wait till you hear complaints about battleship/cruiser stacks making the same thing.
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