Additional research slot IS needed to play the game and use all units

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    • Additional research slot IS needed to play the game and use all units

      Hello.

      As we discussed in a CoW PL Community discord what improvements can be done to the game, we came to the conclusion, that in the current game state it's impossible to play more than standard meta type units. Let me explain.

      In the current game state meta is still pretty similar to the one that was proficient in 1.0, which is artillery + planes + tanks. There are some changes, like replacing tanks with motorized infantry or making med/heavy tanks viable, but overall it keeps being the same. As we discussed why is it that the same units prevail, we came to the conclusion, that it's because of few factors:

      - Long research time for higher tier planes, which are required to play which blocks at least 2 research slots for a long time, since to play you need at least fighters + some kind of bombers


      - Long research time for atom, which makes it almost not worth it, since it blocks your research slots for a long time, and puts you behind, which means that you will probably lose before you will be able to get some nuclear power, unless you were already overpowering your enemies


      - Maps duration too short to get all research to even medium level, while specialization in few kinds of units always prevails, which means you need to specialize if you want to beat your specializing oponent.

      - No enough resources to research all the time since the beginning of the map, which makes research slots not used all the time for first few days.

      Those, and few other reasons are the main points, that made us come to the conclusion, that at least third research slot around 10th day of game is needed to unlock full 1.5 fun, especially on 100p world at war map. Furthermore we think that even fourth research slot should be unlocked at some point in lategame.
    • The point of the game is to make strategical choices and specialise in some units. It's the restrictions that make it so interesting as you have to adapt your self and make difficult choices. Same goes for the resources, you need to prioritize and adapt yourself to the economy of your army. Nuclear is a niche branch and so it takes time and it is expensive. Nuclaer is an extra card in your hands in long games but you don't base your strategy on it. In 1.0 nuclear started at day 40 now it's day 20 so I find it consistent.

      If all these proposals would be integrated in the game it would just become a brainless smashing into each other.
      BMfox
      Moderator
      EN Community Support | Bytro Gmbh

      Check out my YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/c/BMfoxCallofWar


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    • BMfox wrote:

      The point of the game is to make strategical choices and specialise in some units. "..."

      If all these proposals would be integrated in the game it would just become a brainless smashing into each other.
      Currently the game is brainless smashing arty stacks into each other, with some modification that came with 1.5, that made tanks valuable, as new version of SBDE makes mixing heavy and light units a way, to make your stacks more resistant. Furthermore I can guarantee you, that your current "strategical choices" and specialzation in "some" units means "play only meta units" and specialize in "arty/planes" or your opponent who maxes out meta units will smash you around, unless he's afk and just meele fights you with arty or something.

      The ability to research something else than meta units is the only thing, that locks us from changing that, by for example researching high lvl militia and surprising enemies with invisible flank, or getting nukes early, to stop wasting time by shooting and scooting every 30 minutes into 4k hp towers of meat, untill one of them is significantly weaker.

      The discussion we had was among many high lvl players from top alliances, or even the pros that are paid to play this game, so I think our conclusions are accurate, and would allow variety on top level of game.
    • Tbh I don't think this would actually change anything. if anything this would make meta units and specialized units even more good. since there are now 4 or 3 research slots meta units such as planes ,artillery and tanks would be very high leveled up very quickly.
      "I don't know jeff!"

      Chris kamara
    • If anything we should buff and need units so everyone uses variety as

      AMG Morgan wrote:

      Tbh I don't think this would actually change anything. if anything this would make meta units and specialized units even more good. since there are now 4 or 3 research slots meta units such as planes ,artillery and tanks would be very high leveled up very quickly.
      If we just add more research slots the meta units will just be used more.
    • laaaaaaaaga wrote:

      This is not the topic of this thread so don't spam it please. Also if any Mod could delete not necessary spam it would be great
      Well that claim kind of discredits your post. I mean, who's payed to play? Sounds like your player base that you say to represent might be less significant than you make us to believe ;)
      BMfox
      Moderator
      EN Community Support | Bytro Gmbh

      Check out my YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/c/BMfoxCallofWar


      Found a bug or need help? Send a ticket here!
    • BMfox wrote:

      laaaaaaaaga wrote:

      This is not the topic of this thread so don't spam it please. Also if any Mod could delete not necessary spam it would be great
      Well that claim kind of discredits your post. I mean, who's payed to play? Sounds like your player base that you say to represent might be less significant than you make us to believe ;)
      How does it discredit this post? People who literally play the game probably more than anyone can't have valid opinion? I think their knowledge is valuable. Involvement of best of the best discredits the whole idea? Their involvement in discussion made us direct conversation from boosting weaker units or lowering the research timer to current version, but they were not the only one who pushed the idea. The discord have around 250 members, which makes it the biggest national CoW community discord that i know about, and one of the biggest overall, even including the international ones. It gathers players from multiple alliances, not involved in alliances, fresh and experienced. You are nit-picking at this idea since the beginning of it's existance, but i hope this dispels your doubts, as my reply to your first concerns seems to did, as you did not continue the topic.
    • AMG Morgan wrote:

      Tbh I don't think this would actually change anything. if anything this would make meta units and specialized units even more good. since there are now 4 or 3 research slots meta units such as planes ,artillery and tanks would be very high leveled up very quickly.
      This was discussed too, but we calculated the timers. With current research time, unlocking the third research slot day 1 would have that impact, and would make the game more boring. But with unlocking it by day ~10 it makes other units viable. Let me explain: By day 8 depending on doctrines, If you play meta, you probably have unlocked fighters of high tier, some other planes depending on map and your personal preferences on medium tier, one of two meatunits depending on your preferences to medium tier, and perhaps one or 2 units of the 30 minutes tree, as this is the day, that you can start affording researching meme units, since you are waiting for unlocking of the higher tiers of meta. But then it all goes downhill, as to upgrade those weaker units, you need to spend first 8 hours, and then up to even day. You can't just give up the meta upgrades, since this may cost you the game. If you are not against newbies, you will probably have to upgrade all units as soon as possible, to don't get behind. This makes research of even one meme unit to higher level than 1 not viable, and makes his unit even more useless than it would be if upgraded. People proposed few solutions to this problem, but in discussion we discredited buffing units, for balancing reasons,and lowering the research timers of those meme units because that would make allies weaker, which could break the balance of the game too (which is currently in pretty good spot, as almost all doctrines have their strengths and weaknesses). Of course if you have other ideas than mentioned to fix this problem, you are welcomed to discuss them, that's why the topic was brought up to forum.
    • Oh now I see where your coming from, the only possible solution. is to buff units because the player at the top aka try hards. they will wont produce any meme unit. since the stakes are high at high tier they would much rather produce meta units. tho tbf I could see some other units become meta I would not be surprised if rail run gun and rockets became top tier. but where this would have have massive effect is in casual play. causal play is low risk high fun so I would not be surprised to see some very creative unit stacks. But if you want to change the meta. unit buffs and debuffs are an absolute must.
      "I don't know jeff!"

      Chris kamara

      The post was edited 2 times, last by AMG Morgan ().

    • AMG Morgan wrote:

      Oh now I see where your coming from, the only possible solution. is to buff units because the player at the top aka try hards. they will wont produce any meme unit. since the stakes are high at high tier they would much rather produce meta units. tho tbf I could see some other units become meta I would not be surprised if rail run gun and rockets became top tier. but where this would have have massive effect is in casual play. causal play is low risk high fun so I would not be surprised to see some very creative unit stacks. But if you want to change the meta. unit buffs and debuffs are an absolute must.
      We don't want to change meta, we want to unlock it, so more units are viable on all levels of play. We discussed buffs, but this probably would take much time, and bring up new balancing issues. That's why we came up with research slot buff, which would be a "hotfix" to the problem that we see. It takes less time to add 1 research slot, than to buff and nerf units, and then wait for the community/testers to reply if they like the changes or not. This would be a great solution too, but takes too much effort and time, and that's what bytro might lack, since they are still working on main goals of the game, upgrades, and other things.
    • Have you even read my post? Like I said this will for sure make causal games more fun. and make for even more creative stacks but this is not the case for pro players. for pro player it does not make sense to go for meme unit that resources is better spent on producing units, or upgrading economy or researching more high level troops . If this change does happen I don't think the meta will change what so ever. but atleast causal games will be more fun I guess.
      "I don't know jeff!"

      Chris kamara
    • laaaaaaaaga wrote:

      - Long research time for higher tier planes, which are required to play which blocks at least 2 research slots for a long time, since to play you need at least fighters + some kind of bombers
      I thought you considered planes OP, this nerf keeps players from maxing out planes while not neglecting other parts of their armies.


      laaaaaaaaga wrote:

      - Long research time for atom, which makes it almost not worth it, since it blocks your research slots for a long time, and puts you behind, which means that you will probably lose before you will be able to get some nuclear power, unless you were already overpowering your enemies
      Nuke rockets are super stronk tho. If they were easy to get they'd be OP as balls and warp whole meta around them.

      laaaaaaaaga wrote:

      Currently the game is brainless smashing arty stacks into each other, with some modification that came with 1.5, that made tanks valuable, as new version of SBDE makes mixing heavy and light units a way, to make your stacks more resistant. Furthermore I can guarantee you, that your current "strategical choices" and specialzation in "some" units means "play only meta units" and specialize in "arty/planes" or your opponent who maxes out meta units will smash you around, unless he's afk and just meele fights you with arty or something.
      I feel like this has much MUCH more to do with arty & planes being far and away the best units than players wanting but unable to research off-meta units. If players got more research slots they'd just level up arty AND planes.