Balancing Artillery and Aircraft

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    • Suna232 wrote:

      Chet Zwe Han wrote:

      Have you ever not seen players using arty or planes destroying countries while inflicting over ten thousands or even hundred thousands casualties which in return lost only hundred or even none.
      No, I actually never witnessed a real Player vs Player war that finished like that. That is possible only if Player is not active at all or against island AI while using navy.After few airstrikes you will reach almost a 1000 casualties for yourself without enemy having to attack you.

      If enemy is attacking with artillery with some buffer units in front you should do next:
      *if no aa protection use airstrikes
      *if in reach of naval units, attack from sea
      *if no other option is left,engage in melee combat with buffer units, provide artillery and air support and expect from enemy to do the same. If you paid enough attention on terrain and doctrine bonuses aswell as units difference between you and your enemy you will be able to win conflict.

      War is nothing more then a very tricky mind game, you and your enemy trying to overthink one another.

      If you do not have aa/air support/artillery on your side and you get overpowered by someone who does. It doesn't mean that those unita are OP,it just means they are necessity and you made a mistake by avoiding use of them.
      it might be that simple stacks in early games but as the game moves on the composition of the stack becomes more complex and complex and the terrain wont always be on your side, if the enemy is also good enough he won't fall for this prickly terrains. For the same level of 2players, it is likely the firepower and activity will decide the outcome.
      For less casaulties, players will use ranged as offensive units while melee unit will be defending units for the ranged units, there is no OP nor useless but here i wanted to point out the purpose of the arty is getting wrong compare to reality. The game is flawless in its own way.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Chet Zwe Han ().

    • freezy wrote:

      In our other game S1914 it is actually already the case that the lower numbers and HP a unit has, the higher chances it has to survive combat ticks. There it is called "last stand" mechanic by the community. But that is only an unintended side effect due to an old combat system we use in that game. Players actually hate this and often report it as a bug, so we will fix and change it soon there. So I am very much against deliberately implementing this in CoW.
      That's fair.

      freezy wrote:

      So maybe after all just doing some regular balancing changes is the way to go. We actually have already some small tweaks lined up for the update early August, which make ranged weapons and tac/strat bomber a bit more expensive because they are harder to kill. Good that this thread confirms the direction.
      Maybe just a range nerf instead? With the current 50km range and the ms penalty, it's just almost impossible for melee units to make contact with artys if they shoot n scoot. It's shoot n scoot that makes artys op and I think directly nerfing it rather than the unit is more effective.

      For planes, maybe in addition to the cost increase, also buff aa. Currently, aa's are passive defensive units. Their entire existence is anchored on the idea of killing planes but since they're melee and def oriented, they can only do so if the enemy planes banzai themselves into aa's - they don't really kill planes, planes kill themselves.

      I was thinking of giving them range and better offensive values versus planes. With this, they're no longer just a passive deterrent that planes could just easily ignore but an active threat. With this, they could now actually fulfill their purpose of killing planes by shooting them down rather than just sitting there, praying that the other guy's power get cut off so his planes for once actually ticks on you're aa-strapped stack.

    • Suna232 wrote:

      Chet Zwe Han wrote:

      Have you ever not seen players using arty or planes destroying countries while inflicting over ten thousands or even hundred thousands casualties which in return lost only hundred or even none.
      No, I actually never witnessed a real Player vs Player war that finished like that. That is possible only if Player is not active at all or against island AI while using navy.After few airstrikes you will reach almost a 1000 casualties for yourself without enemy having to attack you.

      If enemy is attacking with artillery with some buffer units in front you should do next:
      *if no aa protection use airstrikes
      *if in reach of naval units, attack from sea
      *if no other option is left,engage in melee combat with buffer units, provide artillery and air support and expect from enemy to do the same. If you paid enough attention on terrain and doctrine bonuses aswell as units difference between you and your enemy you will be able to win conflict.

      War is nothing more then a very tricky mind game, you and your enemy trying to overthink one another.

      If you do not have aa/air support/artillery on your side and you get overpowered by someone who does. It doesn't mean that those unita are OP,it just means they are necessity and you made a mistake by avoiding use of them.
      I’ve Seen hundred of players that patrol everything with planes. They destroy your anti air with artillery and bomb your artillery to death
      知己知彼，百战不殆
      :00010164: :00008172: :00002178: :00002047: :00000156: :00010180: :00010317:

    • Suna232 wrote:

      freezy wrote:

      If you want a mechanics change for artillery or bombers, I would rather give them the "friendly fire" feature, cos after all you wouldnt fire artillery into an area where your own units are fighting. But it would also be a rather drastic change to the current gameplay.

      So maybe after all just doing some regular balancing changes is the way to go. We actually have already some small tweaks lined up for the update early August, which make ranged weapons and tac/strat bomber a bit more expensive because they are harder to kill. Good that this thread confirms the direction.
      I do not agree that it would be solution. Players who are complaining are complaining because of ability of artillery to kill unit without having need of close range battle.Correct way (and the most realistic one) is artillery acting as a support for long lasting semi close range battles and head to head collision are resemblance of that kind of combat.

      I believe people need to improve and change their play style and not to see everything as an issue. However I low key agree that artillery(navy, airforce) shouldn't be able to finish of units without close combat.

      I have two suggestions :
      1.
      When capturing empty enemy's province to always reduce small % of health from unit(s) that captured it (this will resemble resistance of any remaining soliders and gorila warfare)
      2.
      When unit (or if more units then whole stacks health) is let's say less then a 5% of health it becomes invisible for ranged units because of smaller target

      Just to make it clear, it would be perfectly okay for it to stay the way it is now.
      2. This would also make sense for airplane bombardement (tactical bombers) to infantry units. When we go into consideration, that artillery units (enough men) are forced to make an active move with his, let's exaggerate, 10 arty-only-stack. This would open up numerous more tactics.
      Hier könnt Ihr ein Support-Ticket erstellen. :00000450:

    • Destructo the Great wrote:

      Suna232 wrote:

      Chet Zwe Han wrote:

      Have you ever not seen players using arty or planes destroying countries while inflicting over ten thousands or even hundred thousands casualties which in return lost only hundred or even none.
      No, I actually never witnessed a real Player vs Player war that finished like that. That is possible only if Player is not active at all or against island AI while using navy.After few airstrikes you will reach almost a 1000 casualties for yourself without enemy having to attack you.
      If enemy is attacking with artillery with some buffer units in front you should do next:
      *if no aa protection use airstrikes
      *if in reach of naval units, attack from sea
      *if no other option is left,engage in melee combat with buffer units, provide artillery and air support and expect from enemy to do the same. If you paid enough attention on terrain and doctrine bonuses aswell as units difference between you and your enemy you will be able to win conflict.

      War is nothing more then a very tricky mind game, you and your enemy trying to overthink one another.

      If you do not have aa/air support/artillery on your side and you get overpowered by someone who does. It doesn't mean that those unita are OP,it just means they are necessity and you made a mistake by avoiding use of them.
      I’ve Seen hundred of players that patrol everything with planes. They destroy your anti air with artillery and bomb your artillery to death
      Problem is here: doctrin ally: day one - tactical bomber vs. doctrin comintern: weakest Anti-Air-Units in the game
      Only thing you can do is hang on to mega-stacks with very slow anti-air in it. Otherwise you will get busted by ally doctrin.
      Hier könnt Ihr ein Support-Ticket erstellen. :00000450:

    • I think what makes the shoot and scoot tactic so effective is the 50% movement penalty on enemy territory. What I think is completely unrealistic is how quickly the movement rate switches. I mean you take over a province and instantly your movement rate doubles?! If movement rates on non-core providences were tied to morale somehow when you own it, that may balance things out. The change in rates shouldn't be as instant as flipping a light switch.

      With bombers I agree with earlier comments about AA being too week and passive. The difference between damage values against air units between AA units and a regular infantry is not enough. Plus it should be able to do something to units when they see them to limit the effectiveness of using air units for recon.

      The post was edited 3 times, last by 6thDragon ().

    • Destructo the Great wrote:

      I’ve Seen hundred of players that patrol everything with planes. They destroy your anti air with artillery and bomb your artillery to death
      You let them to kill your units from range without defending or offending

      Hurbala wrote:

      Problem is here: doctrin ally: day one - tactical bomber vs. doctrin comintern: weakest Anti-Air-Units in the gameOnly thing you can do is hang on to mega-stacks with very slow anti-air in it. Otherwise you will get busted by ally doctrin.
      comimtern have cheaper units and should really on mass production.
      Even axis AA is significantly cheaper then aircraft.
      Фарис Синановић, Суна

    • Suna232 wrote:

      Destructo the Great wrote:

      I’ve Seen hundred of players that patrol everything with planes. They destroy your anti air with artillery and bomb your artillery to death
      You let them to kill your units from range without defending or offending

      Hurbala wrote:

      Problem is here: doctrin ally: day one - tactical bomber vs. doctrin comintern: weakest Anti-Air-Units in the gameOnly thing you can do is hang on to mega-stacks with very slow anti-air in it. Otherwise you will get busted by ally doctrin.
      comimtern have cheaper units and should really on mass production.Even axis AA is significantly cheaper then aircraft.
      speed is the factor which will kill you vs air. you loose everything except mega-stacks. try it out. you will see ... the light tanks or mot.infantry will take everything away from comi-player.
      Hier könnt Ihr ein Support-Ticket erstellen. :00000450:

    • Hurbala wrote:

      speed is the factor which will kill you vs air. you loose everything except mega-stacks. try it out. you will see ... the light tanks or mot.infantry will take everything away from comi-player.
      I simply do not agree. Game is well balanced, every doctrine have it's own benefits and weaknesses.
      I do not go well with comintern doctrine but have faced many opponents that do.
      No point in further discussion.
      Фарис Синановић, Суна

    • halom44 wrote:

      Sounds like someone keeps getting smashed by artty and wants an easy way out lol. The way support is in this game is just fine the way it is now. Haven aa or fighters to counter your enemies bombers works.
      But when some random guy builds up a whole ass 25 stack with anti air, infantry, arty, armored car and railroad gun. There is really little options you have to destroy it. Its easier to counter bomber, but if someone just camps with arty. its much harder. unless you pour like 60 units to destroy a single stack.

    • Well it's a lot less mobile for sure.
      When the fake daddies are curtailed, we have failed. When their roller coaster tolerance is obliterated, their education funds are taken by Kazakhstani phishers, and their candy bars distributed between the Botswana youth gangs, we have succeeded.
      - BIG DADDY.

    • Z. Sakki wrote:

      The people backing this balancing are the ones smashing players left n right with artys and planes. It's boring.
      Hitler's blitzkrieg was successful because it used advanced technology to overwhelm enemy forces. First, airplanes bombed a region, then fast-moving ground troops moved in to surround enemy forces followed by artillery shallig.

      This is the beginning of WW2,beginning of new strategys and the time where this game is taking place.
      Essentially airforce and artillery that is used for attack rather then more familiar use of them earlier mostly for defence.
      You as a Player need to use those tactics and in same time make yourself prepared for defence of it.
      Фарис Синановић, Суна

    • That's not what's happening in CoW. If you build anything other than planes and artys + def troops to cover the artys, you'd lose.

      If you try what you just said:

      Suna232 wrote:

      Hitler's blitzkrieg was successful because it used advanced technology to overwhelm enemy forces. First, airplanes bombed a region, then fast-moving ground troops moved in to surround enemy forces followed by artillery shallig.
      - You'd lose. The correct approach would be to shell the crap out of a target with arty and planes then move in to capture the now empty province. No "then fast-moving ground troops moved in to surround enemy forces", if you do that, you're just wasting resources.

      If you missed it, we actually want the game to be played that way, hence the call for balancing because currently, you just can't play that way because the game is too arty-centered. With shoot n scoot, melee offensive units are just not viable. I think you can even ditch planes except for ints and just double down on artys. They're that broken.

      You're essentially obligated to go arty every single time if you want to win and it gets old really fast. It's boring. Might as well just rebrand the game to Call of Artillery at this point.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Z. Sakki ().

    • Suna232 wrote:

      Z. Sakki wrote:

      The people backing this balancing are the ones smashing players left n right with artys and planes. It's boring.
      Hitler's blitzkrieg was successful because it used advanced technology to overwhelm enemy forces. First, airplanes bombed a region, then fast-moving ground troops moved in to surround enemy forces followed by artillery shallig.
      This is the beginning of WW2,beginning of new strategys and the time where this game is taking place.
      Essentially airforce and artillery that is used for attack rather then more familiar use of them earlier mostly for defence.
      You as a Player need to use those tactics and in same time make yourself prepared for defence of it
      No Planes and Arty were used to weaken and disperse enemy lines, not to directly kill them. Infantry can easily take cover from planes and arty, as evidenced in World War I. The British shelled the Germans at Somme for over 7 days with over 1.7 mil shells. Yet the Germans simply hid in trenches and were fine and provided ample resistance to British assult, inflicting heavy casualties. This was also evidenced in World War II during the battle of Seelow heights, where the Soviets placed over 9,000 rocket arty and arty and bombarded German positions. Yet, most German forces survived and were able to inflict more losses on Soviets with far less forces. With air planes, during the battle of Sedan, French forces only suffered minor losses from airplanes. The true damage came from dispersion not actual damage. Tanks and infantry are used to go in and inflict damage and capture prisoners.