Allied army bonuses don't "fit"

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    • Allied army bonuses don't "fit"

      When I look at axis doctrine army compositions like motorized infantry+ medium tanks I can only see that they fit:
      Polar Armour class variance +
      Specialisation against different armor classes +
      Both are either offensive or defensive (in our case here offensive) +
      Both are relatively fast (the medium tank is rather average speed but it could get worse....) +

      When I look at the allied doctrine...I just don't really see that pattern ...
      Tanks are basically useless....the good replacement being tank destroyers....but pair it with what? With motorized infantry as axis I had a scout unit+ anti AT+ super fast land grabber + unarmoured class all in one....
      With allied doctrine I don't get the good scouting because of the weaker view range, it's 25% slower than with axis, it's 25% less strong against unarmoured AT and other infantry, and with 15% less HP (which could even out with the 10% higher cost as axis)...let alone it's offensive unlike TDs which are defensive...

      So how about Normal infantry? No special bonus in either doctrine but it's both much weaker and slower in allied doctrine through doctrine bonuses and penalties...

      Mechanized infantry? Gets good bonuses as allies.....very good against infantry and so forth......defensive....but the problem is it's light Armour....the very important armor variance is now lost.....I can see axis and Comintern doctrine spamming anti armour units to counter this stack and it doesn't cut it that way.

      Commandoes? Just doesn't work for many reasons...much of which have been discussed in an earlier post "mechanized infantry+ TDs vs. commandoes+ TDs as allies"....

      I just can't find anything that good to pair with the TDs of allies....where as in axis doctrine the motorised infantry+ medium tanks combo is benefited MASSIVELY by doctrine and special bonuses each...

      Also as allies the tactical bomber and interceptor bonus of being available early is rather feeble: as axis you still get lvl 3 tactical bombers and interceptors relatively quickly so getting attack bombers available earlier is great to have the whole trio upgrades available faster...
      With allies it's the opposite....just why?

      And on another note we got rockets vs. strategic bombers: it is quite bothersome to get both....axis focuses on rockets which is good...what does the allies doctrine do? It buffs strategic bombers and nuclear weapons (which needs me to research rockets anyway so I can't ignore it)...and then we remember that nuclear weapons COULD be a very critical plan b in some endgames so one might as well just go rockets and the nuclear anyways.....

      And then again.....navy gets no bonuses that matter much..... aircraft carriers are nice but quite situational....they only really matter THAT much when invading continents......the axis submarines however are deemed as op by many, which is perhaps an overstatement but they are quite important nevertheless.....

      so can anyone tell me why is the allies doctrine research so "uncooperative" like this?

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Kyrollous ().

    • Kyrollous wrote:

      When I look at axis doctrine army compositions like motorized infantry+ medium tanks I can only see that they fit:
      Polar Armour class variance +
      Specialisation against different armor classes +
      Both are either offensive or defensive (in our case here offensive) +
      Both are relatively fast (the medium tank is rather average speed but it could get worse....) +

      When I look at the allied doctrine...I just don't really see that pattern ...
      Tanks are basically useless....the good replacement being tank destroyers....but pair it with what? With motorized infantry as axis I had a scout unit+ anti AT+ super fast land grabber + unarmoured class all in one....
      With allied doctrine I don't get the good scouting because of the weaker view range, it's 25% slower than with axis, it's 25% less strong against unarmoured AT and other infantry, and with 15% less HP (which could even out with the 10% higher cost as axis)...let alone it's offensive unlike TDs which are defensive...

      So how about Normal infantry? No special bonus in either doctrine but it's both much weaker and slower in allied doctrine through doctrine bonuses and penalties...

      Mechanized infantry? Gets good bonuses as allies.....very good against infantry and so forth......defensive....but the problem is it's light Armour....the very important armor variance is now lost.....I can see axis and Comintern doctrine spamming anti armour units to counter this stack and it doesn't cut it that way.

      Commandoes? Just doesn't work for many reasons...much of which have been discussed in an earlier post "mechanized infantry+ TDs vs. commandoes+ TDs as allies"....

      I just can't find anything that good to pair with the TDs of allies....where as in axis doctrine the motorised infantry+ medium tanks combo is benefited MASSIVELY by doctrine and special bonuses each...

      Also as allies the tactical bomber and interceptor bonus of being available early is rather feeble: as axis you still get lvl 3 tactical bombers and interceptors relatively quickly so getting attack bombers available earlier is great to have the whole trio upgrades available faster...
      With allies it's the opposite....just why?

      And on another note we got rockets vs. strategic bombers: it is quite bothersome to get both....axis focuses on rockets which is good...what does the allies doctrine do? It buffs strategic bombers and nuclear weapons (which needs me to research rockets anyway so I can't ignore it)...and then we remember that nuclear weapons COULD be a very critical plan b in some endgames so one might as well just go rockets and the nuclear anyways.....

      And then again.....navy gets no bonuses that matter much..... aircraft carriers are nice but quite situational....they only really matter THAT much when invading continents......the axis submarines however are deemed as op by many, which is perhaps an overstatement but they are quite important nevertheless.....

      so can anyone tell me why is the allies doctrine research so "uncooperative" like this?
      unit bonuses are not very important
      main bonuses for doctrines are important
      allied doctrine %30 faster production so what you need to use this advantage ?
      answer is a lot of resource and manpower
      so while developing your economy you need to invade small targets with little loss
      artillery is very important here , you can add them cruisers
      train them at the beginning and build your factories , dont spend your resources to research useless things or train
      you need to reach level 5 factories and level 3 recruit stations at core provinces and you should stay defensive
      find friends from around
      so you dont need attacker units , you need ranged units until you have a good economy

      your main bonus is %30 production time you dont have to go mech inf or tank destroyer because of bonuses

      If you want to go tanks at the beginning of game country selection is very important , try to find a country with many oil and iron province if you have good economy you can build faster than others what you want

      maybe your infantries have no bonuses but they still have terrain bonuses you can train them quicker and you can do this with %10 lesser cost
      so we can say basically ıf your infantries come to face to face at forest with enemy motorized infantries you have advantage here

      The post was edited 4 times, last by Undaunted ().

    • But you know I can't use mechanized infantry with TDs right?
      I can do motorised infantry+ medium tanks but mechanized+ TDs will get shredded by AT guns for example....
      Well basically everything will dish out notable damage to a light armour unit EXCEPT regular, motorised infantry and ACs......the rest will either outright crush my poor mechanized infantry or at least do enough damage to make it not worth it the long term....

      Motorised infantry? Ironically it doesn't target infantry....it targets artillery, AA guns, AT guns, TDs... almost thing that MEDIUM TANKS (the main fighters) won't deal with.....whereas for other units? The medium tank will happily kill them...so that combo is very good...

      But mechanized infantry? How the hell do I use that anyway? Yeah sure it's very good against infantry........fantastic even...
      But what does the enemy have to fight in exchange? Everything from tactical bombers to AT guns (mechanized and AT guns are mutually vulnerable to each other)
    • Popular builds for Allies are mot arty stacks with a TD+AC screen in front to stop rushers. Most of the damage should come from the artillery. The screen is insurance. AC also split off to scout and grab land.

      Or if you are low on oil, regular and rocket arty, AT guns + infantry screen. A few AC for scouting.

      Air force focused on tactical bombers, which are very good against light armor and have long range. They only thing they can't handle is heavy armor. That's what the artillery of for.

      Axis mot infantry and medium tanks are nice but don't be fooled, any strategy based on close combat is a losing strategy. Good players will shred you. The game favors ranged attacks, especially artillery and navy which destroy land units at no cost. Close combat costs HP, which means you keep losing and replacing units, which means you will eventually run out of steam and get slaughtered by enemies who don't lose HP and whose armies just keep getting stronger.
    • z00mz00m wrote:

      Popular builds for Allies are mot arty stacks with a TD+AC screen in front to stop rushers. Most of the damage should come from the artillery. The screen is insurance. AC also split off to scout and grab land.

      Or if you are low on oil, regular and rocket arty, AT guns + infantry screen. A few AC for scouting.

      Air force focused on tactical bombers, which are very good against light armor and have long range. They only thing they can't handle is heavy armor. That's what the artillery of for.

      Axis mot infantry and medium tanks are nice but don't be fooled, any strategy based on close combat is a losing strategy. Good players will shred you. The game favors ranged attacks, especially artillery and navy which destroy land units at no cost. Close combat costs HP, which means you keep losing and replacing units, which means you will eventually run out of steam and get slaughtered by enemies who don't lose HP and whose armies just keep getting stronger.
      This makes some sense....
      So how do I use mechanized infantry and/or commandoes? They apparently don't fit at all.....or perhaps it's just mechanized infantry in place of ACs?
      Yeah makes sense now
    • Kyrollous wrote:

      But you know I can't use mechanized infantry with TDs right?
      I can do motorised infantry+ medium tanks but mechanized+ TDs will get shredded by AT guns for example....
      Well basically everything will dish out notable damage to a light armour unit EXCEPT regular, motorised infantry and ACs......the rest will either outright crush my poor mechanized infantry or at least do enough damage to make it not worth it the long term....

      Motorised infantry? Ironically it doesn't target infantry....it targets artillery, AA guns, AT guns, TDs... almost thing that MEDIUM TANKS (the main fighters) won't deal with.....whereas for other units? The medium tank will happily kill them...so that combo is very good...

      But mechanized infantry? How the hell do I use that anyway? Yeah sure it's very good against infantry........fantastic even...
      But what does the enemy have to fight in exchange? Everything from tactical bombers to AT guns (mechanized and AT guns are mutually vulnerable to each other)
      God favours the side with the best artillery - Napoleon Bonaparte

      you are producing food and you need to spend them for infantry tech tree and naval units
      so you will choose units from tech trees according to your strategy
      inf , moto inf , mech inf ???
      mech has more hp , more damage , more anti-air value , can kill militias , light tanks , moto infantries , infantries , armored cars , commandos , paratroopers , outside of heavy armor units they can kill everything they can attack and they can defend same value for both side , they can kill even anti tanks
      but they are more vulnerable for enemy attack bombers and they are more expensive they are slower than moto inf etc. choosing to one depends your strategy and economy
    • Kyrollous wrote:

      This makes some sense....So how do I use mechanized infantry and/or commandoes? They apparently don't fit at all.....or perhaps it's just mechanized infantry in place of ACs?
      Yeah makes sense now

      Commandos are situational. Do you need to advance stealthily through rough terrain? Are you sure the enemy can't see you with AC or MI? May be a good use of commandos and militia.

      I never use commandos as a front line unit. Waste of stealth. Too expensive and fragile.

      Mech Inf are good as an all around front line unit, traveling with medium tanks or tank destroyers and motorized AA. Good at taking lightly defended cities (heavy defense always requires artillery). Good city defenders, especially combined with tank destroyers.

      Keep in mind every unit has a time and place. Mech Inf is an expensive late have unit, when you need to cross large distances. If you are defending your core, regular infantry is cheaper, and mobility doesn't matter.
    • I'll say this again... militia is SO much better for stealth than commando's! You can have L3 stealth (meaning L1&L2 spotters STILL can't see you) when your commando's are still only L1. Then they're cheaper, faster to produce... their only really disadvantage is their speed, but hey-ho, a stealth unit operating in the low-troop-concentration area's doesn't really NEED speed!

      @freezy, I think this actually needs to be fixed... can't commando's at LEAST start at L2 stealth?
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    • K.Rokossovski wrote:

      I'll say this again... militia is SO much better for stealth than commando's! You can have L3 stealth (meaning L1&L2 spotters STILL can't see you) when your commando's are still only L1. Then they're cheaper, faster to produce... their only really disadvantage is their speed, but hey-ho, a stealth unit operating in the low-troop-concentration area's doesn't really NEED speed!

      @freezy, I think this actually needs to be fixed... can't commando's at LEAST start at L2 stealth?
      Yeah, commandos are a joke if militia have superior stealth abilities. Commandos should get stealth abilities equivalent to one level more than their actual level, probably also scouting abilities as well. I think that would make them worth using.
    • I will do you all one

      K.Rokossovski wrote:

      I'll say this again... militia is SO much better for stealth than commando's! You can have L3 stealth (meaning L1&L2 spotters STILL can't see you) when your commando's are still only L1. Then they're cheaper, faster to produce... their only really disadvantage is their speed, but hey-ho, a stealth unit operating in the low-troop-concentration area's doesn't really NEED speed!

      @freezy, I think this actually needs to be fixed... can't commando's at LEAST start at L2 stealth?
      I will do you all one more and say maybe commandoes shouldn't be detectable...like at all (with the exception of using spies in revealing armies)....and in exchange should be much more expensive, or maybe get weaker stats (imagine a team of 10-20 commandoes killing hundreds of not a couple thousand enemy soldiers in one or two regiments.....this isn't 300)...
      What do you think?
    • K.Rokossovski wrote:

      I'll say this again... militia is SO much better for stealth than commando's! You can have L3 stealth (meaning L1&L2 spotters STILL can't see you) when your commando's are still only L1. Then they're cheaper, faster to produce... their only really disadvantage is their speed, but hey-ho, a stealth unit operating in the low-troop-concentration area's doesn't really NEED speed!

      @freezy, I think this actually needs to be fixed... can't commando's at LEAST start at L2 stealth?
      100% agree. IMO Commandos need L2 starting stealth, and most probably L4 and L6 for the second and third upgrades (maybe L5 stealth for lvl 3 commandos since there are only 5 levels for AC with blueprints)
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    • Kyrollous wrote:

      I will do you all one

      K.Rokossovski wrote:

      I'll say this again... militia is SO much better for stealth than commando's! You can have L3 stealth (meaning L1&L2 spotters STILL can't see you) when your commando's are still only L1. Then they're cheaper, faster to produce... their only really disadvantage is their speed, but hey-ho, a stealth unit operating in the low-troop-concentration area's doesn't really NEED speed!

      @freezy, I think this actually needs to be fixed... can't commando's at LEAST start at L2 stealth?
      I will do you all one more and say maybe commandoes shouldn't be detectable...like at all (with the exception of using spies in revealing armies)....and in exchange should be much more expensive, or maybe get weaker stats (imagine a team of 10-20 commandoes killing hundreds of not a couple thousand enemy soldiers in one or two regiments.....this isn't 300)...What do you think?
      NO, thanks but no. That would be too good!
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