AXIS vs ALLIES # 8 Game Invite

THE GAME IS FULL. PLEASE POST A REPLY WITH YOUR INTEREST FOR THE NEXT GAME.

Realistic WW2 play.
Rules at bottom of this post. Full explanations in our 'Country Situations' RP post.

GAME START INFO:

Start Time:
Up now-

Game Number:
1,406,383

Game Name:
AXIS vs ALLIES 8

Password:
~

AXIS vs ALLIES # 8 Game Player Update:
ALLIES:
*U.S.A. – Kalantigos has the full check-in information (Liberinsula, ctgarric are ready to play the U.S.)* Isolationist until late turn 7 (Dec 11, 1941).
*France – Lt. Henry * Probably Vichy. Reduced oil.
Soviets – 'Idamtus.'
U.K.- rogodeterSnowl (including Canada) will make 'EXTRA' gold BBs.

AXIS:
Italy- SergeantRock Low $, resources & tech.
Germany – James Hartmund BB 'Gneisenau made, Low Steel
Yugoslavia – ? ? ? (ctgarric is ready to play Yugo) Activated when Germany attacks Russia. Very low $, resources & tech. 1 industry build limit.
Hungary/Slovakia - Overlord_KC Activated when Germany attacks Russia. [played by Sweden]. 1 industry build limit.

Pro-AXIS:
Spain – richerich May be activated later Spain plays only 3 units total against the USSR and a few Spanish filled Free French units. Very Low $, resources & tech.
Turkey- Soldjr325 Activated upon the fall of all of Egypt & Cyprus AND the AXIS doing very well in Russia. Very Low $, resources & tech.

Neutral:
Sweden – Overlord_KC *Note that the Swedish player plays 3 volunteer units in Finland, without officially being at war.

Interested Players: Liberinsula, ctgarric, Lt Tommy, Soldjr325, Pablo22510, panzerfaust, Yonericus, etc...

GOALS & RULES:
1. REALISTIC WW2 PLAY.
2. CORRECT & FAIR SIDES.
3. SERIOUSNESS.
4. CORRECT ALLIANCES.
5. NO CHEESE!
6. APPROPRIATE START.
7. PERMANANCY.
8. ADVICE/ SHARING/ TEACHING.

EXPLANATION OF GOALS & RULES:
1. REALISTIC WW2 PLAY. Not an exact recreation of WW2, but following realistic possibilities from the Winter 1938 start (turn 1) onwards.
-The ALLIES or Neutrals may not attack Neutrals unless to defend them from the AXIS or Soviets.
-Germany & the Soviets are initially allied.
-The U.S.A. is initially a Neutral and a strict Isolationist.
-Italy starts as a Neutral.
-France may not attack Germany proper until after the Phony War.
2. CORRECT ALLIANCES & COUNTRY SPECIFICS.
-ALLIES: U.K. + France. France & U.K are allied and should immediately share maps.
-AXIS: Initially Germany. Italy and Yugoslavia will join later.
-USSR. The Soviets sent communist troops to the Spanish Civil War, therefore Spain may do the same and send volunteers to Russia and not be officially at war with the USSR nor the ALLIES. Sweden may defend Finland against the USSR and again, not be at war with the Soviets.
Before the start of the game the Soviets and the Germans will have an agreement (Molotov-Ribbentrop) over the division of Poland and the Baltic States. Afterwards the Soviets and the Germans are officially allied.
The USSR must wait until the spring of 1942 to attack the AXIS (this is day 8).
The Soviets are an eventual ALLIED side player. Enemies: Historically Finland (possibly Romania & Turkey?). Attacking Sweden, Norway, Bulgaria, etc., would make them an ENEMY of the ALLIES.
-U.S.A. The U.S. becomes ALLIED end of day 7 (Dec.11, 1941), then may land troops at 06:00 game (3 month ocean voyage to eastern hemisphere). The U.S. is restricted to pre-war navy of 1 active battleship and 3 mothballed/ inactive battleships. Not until the summer of 1941 (day 7) may the U.S. put their troops west of Iceland.
-Italy. Italy is a Neutral in 1939. The western ALLIES may not declare war on Italy unless Italy declares war on Portugal or Poland.
-Yugoslavia Neutral and is substituted for AXIS Romania. There are 1,224,691 Romanian soldiers that are strangely absent from CoW. If the Soviets declare war that activates Yugoslavia as an AXIS player, otherwise Yugo is activated (and can be in Russia) when Germany AXIS attacks Russia.
-Pro-AXIS Spain. Activated upon the capture of Egypt, Levant & Cyprus (not counting Malta) & there is a CLEAR AXIS vs the British (1 of 3 conditions) talk to the game moderator.
-Pro-AXIS Turkey. May not attack any countries until activated. Activated upon the capture of ALL capture of British territory in Egypt, Levant and Cyprus. The Turkish owned Bosporus is CLOSED to all traffic!
-Strictly neutral Sweden.
-Vichy France. If set-up by the AXIS, a set amount of the French forces, (called ‘Vichy’ France) will become an AXIS ally (a German Protectorate). The western ALLIES may attack the ‘neutral’ Vichy France. For specifics about a proposed Vichy, message the game moderator.
-Portugal is an ALLIED member. Any attacks upon them is an attack on the ALLIES.
3. SERIOUSNESS. Sadly, players often quit CoW. Hopefully players here will remain in games because they’ll show serious intent. Indicate your interest in reply posts or message me in CoW. We will post the countries taken and available for the next game in reply post here below.
4. FAIR. These games should be low gold usage games. Some people WILL spend gold, however most are not here to win just by outspending others.
5. NO CHEESE! Acceptable ‘right of ways’ in our games are:
AXIS- Finland, Sweden (limited), Romania, Slovakia, Hungary and Bulgaria (not Spain).
ALLIES- Belgium, Holland, Norway, Portugal, Denmark, Finland (ALLIES for defense vs. Russia ONLY). Sweden- Germany (to play Hungary/ Slovakia), Finland for defense vs. Russian ONLY.
6. APPROPRIATE START:
-U.K. can, and should immediately take Canada (1.6 million citizens in military on the ALLIED side), Iceland upon fall of Copenhagen.
-U.S.A. may take Cuba asap (an ALLIED member in 1941).
-Slovakia & Hungary. Hungary declared war against the Soviets on 27 June 1941 and had 700'ish-man-strong Armies & the Slovaks. Both fought the USSR as reluctant AXIS members. Both should be played by the Swedish player, as both in CoW are neutrals and NOT allied with the AXIS.
7. PERMANANCY. We are trying to create a base of players that will have fun from game to game. We’re trying to get a core of nice, ‘normal,’ serious players that care about a historical game.
8. ADVICE/ SHARING/ TEACHING. We will always be glad to share CoW game advice, share our (limited) knowledge of game mechanics, and teach basic strategies to help create a fair & balanced gaming environment.

Rules:
-NO ROCKETS. Rockets were a terror weapon and are very over-valued in most games. They did minor industrial damage & virtually no troops were killed by them. Researching them for jets is ok. We are allowing a few German rockets to operate, but only against empty cities.
-The only countries that are allowed to use nuclear bombers is the U.S.A. and Germany (others 1952 & 1953). Germany is limited to lvl 1 Nuclear Bombers.
-No nukes at enemies that are engaged in combat (collateral damage).
-No Nuclear subs or BBs. These are cold war era weapons (1950 +).
-No personal insults please. Hatred of, and comments about one’s enemy is ok.
-Please don’t curse in the Newspaper.
-Player’s using dirty usernames will not be allowed.

REMINDERS:
-NO ROCKETS.
-You will be very welcome to our games. We will treat you with respect and honor.
-Your opponents will often be active and will easily defeat you if you are not.
-If you are defeated and if the victor desires that arrangement, you may continue the game as a conquered minor. Details to be arranged by the conqueror at that point. The German Protectorate of Vichy is 1 example of that.
- WE WILL RESTART a new game if the game is glitiching/ unplayable by anyone, players do not show up, drop, are very inactive, are uncooperative or under very strange circumstances.
-If a player wishes to surrender please make it clear in the Newspaper.
Please message me for next-game start times and a password. All games will be 10 player, free choice, 1939 games titled ‘AXIS vs ALLIES.’
Main Rules:
Realistic WW2 play.
Correct Alliances, Minors & Neutrals.
Limited minor troop builds & research.
NO ROCKETS (minimal German usage)
No Nuc BBs or Subs (1960's tech).

Gold Usage:
5K Optional Gold Usage (to be spent how the player wants)

AND

Appropriate/ Extra/ Unlimited Gold for:
-lvl 3 Naval Yards, for Brit/Germ/U.S.A./Italian/Russian Battleship production.
-Missing 4x U.K. battleships.
-Missing Russian 1 Battleship + Black Sea 1 Battleship & 5 Cruisers (total).
-U.S.A. or U.K. actions to help create an ALLIED Canada to include repair of barracks, industry, units.
-3x fast built French regular arty for Maginot line.
-Missing German BB Scharhorst.
-Canadian manpower (a few Canadian units throughout the game).
-‘Siberian’ troop transfer. 3 infantry corps transferred in summer 1941 & 4 in Fall 1941, after peace w Japan.
-U.K. infantry reinforcements from India. India had 2.5 million soldiers in 1945.
-Excellent German vehicle recovery. Limited amount only for 1/2 damage armor repair.
-American 'red ball express' transports (force march & free repair).
-Limited Russian Partisans. 90,000 were in action by 1941, 142,000 by 1943.
-Limited ALLIED Romania Partisans (simulated Yugoslavian partisans). Over 800,000 strong in 1945.
-Limited Communist (Russian supplied) Romania Partisans.
-1 starting Canadian destroyer.
-German Rockets (only to be used against empty cities)
-etc. Post your 'missing WW2 elements' as a reply to the main AXIS vs ALLIES #4 Role Play forum post.

Appropriate Armor/ Units Rule
A HUGE problem, CoW allows too many armored units to be produced. We're using a country’s ability to make a certain, historical number of them. It is very different from what you’re used to. You will have what will seem like few armored units.
The goal here is to simulate an appropriate starting force pool for each country. Look at the following historical number of armored & motorized units for the various countries that fought in WW2:

Russia:
23 Armored Corps
2 Mot. Corps (mostly American lend-lease trucks)
44 Cavalry Corps (probably simulated by lvl-1 mot. infantry)
136 Infantry Corps
41 Guards (Commandos?) 177 TOTAL
ratio:
Armor / Mot /Cav / Inf
1 / ~Mot / 2Cav / 6Inf

Germany:
19 Panzer Corps + 5SS Panzer Corps
14 Motorized Corps
94 Infantry Corps
6 Mountain + 8SS
ratio:
Arm /Mot/Cav/ Inf
1 +.25SS /.8Mot / ~ / 5Inf

America:
5.3 Armored Corps
2 Motorized Corps
2 Mot. Corps (America chose to Lend-Lease these to Russia)
25 Infantry Corps
2 Airborne + 1.3 phantom units
ratio:
Arm / Mot/Cav/ Inf
1 + .8 phantom/ .4Mot / ~ / 5Inf +.8 phantom
* From what I've read the Americans used their mass of trucks for mass supply. This and the 'Phantom' corps = EXTRA gold usage.

British:
4 Armored Corps
No Mot. Corps (1 Cav. division only)
14 Infantry Corps
ratio:
Arm / Mot/Cav/ Inf
1 armor +1 * tank destroyer?/ ~Mot / ~ / 2
* The British used Bdes (11 armored + 11 tank Bdes [Bde's are small independent units- about 4 armored corps in total MINUS the inherent infantry-so bad anti-infantry value?])

Italy:
2 Armored Corps
1 Cav. Corps
4 Motorized
25 Infantry
24 militia
2 Mountain/2
ratio:
Arm /Mot /Cav / Inf + militia
1 / 2Mot / .5 / 12.5 Inf + 12 militia

French: In 1940-
at BEST 2x Medium armor Coprs (4 armored divisions)
6 (motorized inf.) calvary units.

What about 'I want to do what I want with my country,' and 'what if I, who am in charge of my country went another direction?' (as in to prouduce more armor). These are VERY good objections, and players should always be able to take their country in a different direction than the historical leader did.
I will simply say that other than France in the very early days of WW2, every one wanted to produce the maximum number of armored units that they could; most, if not all saw the value in armored vehicles. Every country was just up against a wall with the amount that they could produce. I.e. every player would produce more than this allotment if allowed, just as every leader in WW2 would have produced more if it were possible, but it was not . You can turn typewriter plants into rifle factories, but you can't turn most industrial plants into tank factories.

Notes:
- The Soviet Union began and ended the war with more tanks than the rest of the world combined (18,000–22,000). They sought to embrace new ideas. When Stalin came to power and enforced a giant, ruthless industrial effort, weak views on armor began to change and Marshal Tukhachevsky’s 'Deep Battle Concept' ideas gained favor. An attack-based policy gained full support at all levels of the military. This was adopted in 1933.
Main Soviet tank production:
BA-64 9110 built, Light Tanks 17,200'ish built, T-34/76 34,780 built , T-34/85 22,560built, 4,8151 KVs (all types) SU-76 14,230 built, ISUs 8279 built (all types)

- Britain had been the worldwide trend-setter in tank development from 1915, but had lost its leadership position as the Second World War approached. Hampered by restricted expenditure in the years leading up the war and still organised for operations in Imperial defence as an expeditionary force, the British Army entered the war unprepared for the very sort of combat its influential theorists. The idea of “mechanized warfare”, and fast tanks, also originated in Britain.
TOTAL & Main British tank production: 27,896 TOTAL Tanks & SP Guns, Scouts 11,000, Armored Cars 9,600, Crusaders 5,300 built, Churchills 7,368 built, Cromwells 3,066 built /// Canada tanks 5,678 built.

- Prior to the entry of the United States into the war after the attack on Pearl Harbor in December 1941, the Army had only a few tanks. During the Louisiana Maneuvers in September 1941, it used trucks with the word "tank" painted on their side. Even after Pearl Harbor the 10th Armored Division did not have any tanks, so crews trained by marching down roads in groups and executing orders as if they were in tanks.
The U.S. supplied tens of thousands of Sherman tanks to U.S., British, Canadian and other Allied forces, tipping the scales against the smaller numbers of elite German tanks on World War II battlefields. “In battle, quantity has a quality all its own.”
First, U.S. military doctrine emphasized the idea that tanks should act as a mobile, armored force capable of racing through holes in enemy lines to wreak havoc on infantry, artillery and other softer targets as they outflanked and encircled the enemy.
Main U.S. tank production: Stuarts 23,119, Other lights 8,068, Mediums 68,864 (Shermans = 33,403).

- At the start of the war, France had one of the largest tank forces in the world along with the Soviet, British and German forces. The French had planned for a defensive war and built tanks accordingly. Their infantry tanks were heavily armoured. But, also, generally, they were relatively sluggish, and operationally in terms of control of their forces, the French were at a disadvantage and were outmaneuvered by the German forces.
French tanks were well respected, but they were slow (infantry pace), according to the tactics of the time, used short-barrel guns to deal with fortifications and machine-gun nests, and had small turrets which forced the tank commander to multi-task. They lacked an intercom or radio. The chain of command was utterly rigid; movements were carefully planned with a combination of artillery and infantry, with tanks in support. Tank commanders were not supposed to take initiative on the field.
Further restricts were: A quarter of French tanks were still with the cavalry. As of 1939 the French still did not envision armored divisions as an autonomous force.

- Germany's armored force was not especially impressive from a technical standpoint at the start of the war. As noted above, it was their advanced combined arms doctrine and unrivaled command-and-control capability that gave German mechanized forces their advantage on the battlefield. The Germans were very well trained, well equipped (with inherent mechanized and motorized regiments & well supplied),flexibility, had a fast decision-making process and a perfect communication capability at all times and at all operational levels.
Heinz Guderian and Erich Von Manstein were both keen to try the new armored warfare tactics. The tactics called for the use of synchronized air support. Armored formations were set to produce decisive breakthroughs at specific locations along the enemy lines (the “Schwerpunkt”), and then either converging to the rear of the enemy to create large pockets, to be left afterwards to the artillery, infantry and aviation.
Total WW2 German tank production: 50,439 built.

- The Italian view on armored warfare was limited in scope, mostly because of the landscape where most divisions fought. The Austro-Hungarian border was mostly an Alpine battleground, which prevented any efficient use of tanks. However, in some areas, like Northern Dalmatia, tanks were ideally suited.
The Italian army was mainly equipped with L3 tankettes in the 1930s, and these, armed with machine guns, formed the main armor strength of Italy as late as 1940. Italy began fielding heavier tanks beginning with the Fiat M11/39 with a 37 mm main gun in 1940. The Italians called their tanks a "coffin for 5 brothers," "sardine box" or "iron casket."

Sir Henry,
I believe tis' Bill Nye. You're in as France. It's a difficult nation to play, as Germany has a strong set-up, and the French Armed forces have been degraded for historic reasons.
We've had some trouble getting the U.K. player to put forth a strong showing with the Allied Expeditionary Force in some of the games. Good luck getting him to fully cooperate.
Do realize that if by the sad chance you have to go Vichy France (a German Protectorate/ Neutral nation) the conditions will be harsh. Just sayin' France is a real challenge and only for manly men!
A small thing is that you should have the missing 3x artillery in the forward Maginot line Fortifications (1 each) that you should quick (GOLD) build asap.

PLAYER LIST UPDATED Sunday Feb. 21 at 7:30 CST (10:00 GMT)

Thanks for your interest the 2 of you. I have your country preferences herr faust and I have you as requesting Yugoslavia sir rich? I would also like to remind you that we're looking for active players. No offense on that, but your enemies will be active, serious players for the most part. We just want a good game. And... make sure and read our post about Yugoslavia or Hungary/Slovakia [Sweden] in our 'Country Situations' post below this one in the forum Role Play section.

Sorry sir rich, was busy yesterday with the kids & taking a small break from the game (one of the few).
I went and checked out that 1932 map; Here are some thoughts about the Bad & Good.

The Good:
- The resources are lowered/ restricted, which is more realistic and therefore preferable.
WHY ON EARTH are they somewhat normal in the 1932 game, but totally out of control in the 1939 game- at the tail end of the Depression. For example does France have about 960,000 oil at the start?!? Germany 1,200,000 ish steel?
- Some pre-built units is a great thing, as players would like play a country as they wish. For example, more subs, some more motorized infantry, more battleships, etc. However I wonder is some of this would be possible, as the world is in a depression and can barely feed their countries. How can Germany make 6 BBs by 1939 if they're paying a wheelbarrow full of money for a loaf of bread?

The Bad:
- There's still no playable Canada nor Romania! Sorry, I just had to get those jabs in there at CoW.
- After a few games, we've found out that players get bored and therefore will be desirous of doing things ahistorically. By this I mean that the U.S., Turkey, Spain, Yugoslavia would/ will be bored to tears and by their country's restricted neutrality, but should still not attack anyone. Instead of the U.S. waiting until turn 7 to attack the Krauts, it would be what, turn 21? Most U.S., Yugoslavian, Hungarian [Sweden] players would lose interest. I've seen it repetitively with the turn 7 waiting. I'm very meticulous but even I would have trouble sitting around, building (for the most part what would be there in 1939) and not attacking.
- The map wouldn't show some real territorial issues that are adjusted in the 39 map. For example Germany just took/ re-militarized the Rhineland back from France. They should not 'own' it in the 1932 game.
- Countries will ALWAYS have better troops than they had. I.e. more tanks (if possible), too advanced of research, more planes (NO ONE knew that they would be that devastating as they were in the early 1930s), scads of submarines. I'm afraid that every country would be too over-clocked so to speak.

Btw, if they just had a game editor, that would take care of 100% of all these issues. We would have correct Countries, at-start units, $, resources, right-of-ways, perhaps alliances, etc.

Some replies:

To panzerfaust-
"how do I approve that" [or 'be approved' by doing that]
Sir panzerfaust we simply try and talk to players 3 or 4 times, to check and see if they're active & hopefully serious players. Half the time players will express interest, and just drop out/ off after 1 conversation. It's not really a 'vetting' process, checking for skill & so forth, just a way to see what country a player wants, if they've read the rules on said coutry (ies), are ok with the particulars, and agree to the rules.
Btw sorry to have missed you last game. You seem motivated and I'm sure you'll take these games seriously,like it here and be most welcomed.
Please move forward Mr. faust. Finish choosing Yugoslavia or Hungary/Slovakia (played by Sweden), say you're ok with that set-up & rules, and you're in . Overlord_KC, the other Yugo. or Hungary player will play the other AXIS country you don't. With your approval to that schttufff- BAM it's done.

To richerich-
"I found the rules now, I'll take Turkey if it's free, and read this essay you wrote.."
Super. Yes that was an essay- ha! The culmination of long, ultra-dull, eye-bleeding research on Turkey I assure you.
About you being Turkey- It seems like you're an experienced player. Therefore you playing Turkey might be a bit of a waste of your talent. But if that's what you want, you're in.
They have very poor $ & resources, other than rares (Chromite). They've only been activated once in the 5 full games we've played btw. They won't go to war with other countries until they're 'activated' and played both sides of the fence. In the end historically it would seem like Turkey did as Franco & Spain did; They just wanted to rebuild their country and would only join up to get a piece of the pie near the end of the war.
Feel free to continue to read-up on Turkey and help us adjusted it more accurately.
If you're here to see how things go, and get in the groove, the very light commitment Turkey is for you. Consider Spain if you want to do more- them having about 6 - 8 units to play throughout the game.
Puttin' you down for Turkey; let us know if you change your mind (Spain- potentially the U.S.A.).

To Prime Minister Snowl-
"I just can't help it - I have to be in for UK again - can't stand to see UK messed up"
1st of all... Hahahahaa I know what you're saying. The U.K. DEMANDS a level of excellence, and although we/ I do my best to find solid players, without a strong U.K. the ALLIES are doOOOomedd... Good to have you back brotha'
AND....
"BTW, the most pertinent thing for Germany (and Italy) is to..."
As Ed McMann used to say "You are CORRECT sir!" It's funny that you are hot on having this fixed, as I have also been complaining under my breath as long as we've played CoW here how it's too easy to light tanks, or worse yet (especially vs. inactive players) to make wayyy too many mobile artillery and cheezily' fight from a distance. It is a REAL problem, and I'll do whatever it takes to correct it. Of course, I'm all ears for players opinions of how to do so. I must say that for people's sanity, we need to keep it simple- the 'K.I.S.S.' theory in action. Therefore my initial reaction to only let a country build armor that includes lights, mediums or Mot.Artillery in a certain number of factories. I'm not sure if to place the motorized/ mechanized units under the same constraints. I.e. only mot/mech in a few factories.

Done deal sir Idamtns thanks for finalizing that.
'Pablo22510' should be a shoe-in for this game. We've been in good contact & he has been seriously pursuing playing in our games for some time and seems like a good chap .
If Pablo checks in we should be ready to roll by 4PM, CST today (11PM GMT) or 11PM CST at the latest. It's onnnn

A quick question comrades- can we start tonight at 11:45PM CST (3:45AM GMT). If anyone can't make it at that time, let me know.