Pinned State-based damage efficiency

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    • State-based damage efficiency



      State-Based Damage Efficiency

      Or SBDE, is a percentage rating for stacked units of the same kind. If your stack of units has 100 points in strength (attack/defense value) but only 70% in SBDE, they will inflict damage as if they were only at 70 points in strength.

      A way to understand this, is to think of your troops getting in each others way, clogging up battle lines and not being able to fire on the enemy.

      Also SBDE is depending on the unit "health/HP" or "morale/condition". If a unit is only at 50% health/HP it will not have 100% SBDE but less. It will still have more than 50% SBDE so in some cases a hurt unit will deal almost the same as a normal, full health unit.

      So how can you improve SBDE rating?

      Imagine a line of units. 10 infantry standing in line firing at a target. The 10 behind them can't fire, because the others in front of them are blocking their view. Now imagine two lines next to each other with 10 units in each. Both lines can fire now.

      So what you want to do, is split your large stack into smaller stacks when engaging someone. You can do this by splitting out a stack and send them a little further ahead than the other stack (further ahead than where the enemy is standing). Sending the stacks to different end locations will make sure they don't merge upon engaging the opponents units. This way your troops will engage as two separate stacks having much better SBDE.

      Be wary

      Personally, I use split stacks to great avail, so I highly recommend it. But keep in mind, if the defending stack is very large, it might be "dangerous" to split your units into inferior forces.

      Also splitting stacks while you are the defender will cause the split stack to lose it's defensive bonus!

      The same mechanics apply to all types of units, be it planes, navy or land units.

      List with maximum numbers to achieve 100% SBDE for stacked units:


      Display Spoiler
      (made by @BRDubbs )

      i. Aircraft – Interceptor – 5
      ii. Aircraft – Naval Bomber - 5
      iii. Aircraft – Strategic bomber – 5
      iv. Aircraft – Tactical bomber - 5
      v. Anti air – 8
      vi. Anti air – SP – 6
      vii. Anti tank – 8
      viii. Artillery - 8
      ix. Artillery – SP – 6
      x. Armored car – 8
      xi. Infantry – Commandos - 8
      xii. Infantry – Infantry – 8
      xiii. Infantry – Mechanized - 6
      xiv. Infantry - militia - 11
      xv. Infantry – motorized - 8
      xvi. Naval - Battleships – 3
      xvii. Naval – Carriers – 3
      xviii. Naval – Cruiser – 5
      xix. Naval – destroyer - 7
      xx. Naval – submarines – 8
      xxi. Tank - destroyer – 5
      xxii. Tank – heavy – 5
      xxiii. Tank – light - 6
      xxiv. Tank – medium - 5
      xxv. Aircraft - Rocket fighter - 5
      xxvi. Railroadgun - 3





      Happy hunting.
      Sincerely, wildL
      EN Mod
      Report a problem

      The post was edited 1 time, last by wildL SPQR ().

    • Good points! I think that sbde is the least understood aspect of this game. I have beaten so many "mega stacks" simply by understanding sbde. good players too! Really important and easiest to fix in air to air, artillery and naval, since all these can have types of stand off attacks.

      For example, not good to have more than 5 tac bombers in a stack. Problem is the hit points on 5 tac bombers isn't enough to keep them from dieing quickly when attacking highly defended targets. adding more tac bombers doesn't help much though. So I have found that adding up to 5 fighter escorts to your tac bombers helps a lot. Increases the damages they do by a little, but more importantly it spreads out the flack damages received over 10 planes instead of just 5. Your sbde stays high without penalty. Even combining a stack of 5 strat bombers helps. Then your damages are increased and received decreased yet again by being spread over 15 planes, and heavily fortified defending troops soon find their forts reduced to rubble. I even usually make one airforce containing 5 naval bombers too..so it becomes a stack of 20 planes...5 interceptors, 5 tac bombers, 5 strat bombers, 5 naval bombers, and this size airforce can manage to sink even cruisers! That's a tough one too! 20 naval bombers in one stack would die like flies. Might win but would take big damages. But the above mixed force will do great against both land and sea with much fewer casualties.

      The one exception to the above I have found is a pure interceptor mission. You see enemy patrols, attack them with 5 fighters...or 2 stacks of 5 fighters each. if you have rocket planes in range you could add them, but adding bombers to an interceptor missions just slows down your fighters.

      In other words fighters are good as escorts for bomber missions, but bombers are poor escorts for fighter missions. It makes sense if you think about it realistically and historically.
    • CzarHellios wrote:

      Nor is this game historical, or realistic. ^^
      Well now that's true! But it is the best we have for now!

      In the case of fighters escorting tacs, it still helps. I have tested this over and over for months on multiple games. Turns out that while damage priority may have an effect, State Based Damage Efficiency potentially has a greater effect, especially against those "mega stacks". Perhaps I didn't explain it well? I know you know the game well Czar. So I am surprised you object. I have tested the above escorting tac bombers with 5 fighters, 5 strategic bombers and sometimes even 5 naval bombers many many many many times. It works.

      Now one caveat. Naval bomber don't get any attack against armor until level 3. So I leave them off the group at low level in some cases, their range too keeps them out of the stack many times. But I assure you 100 % 15 tacs attacking a ground stack will take more casualties than 5 tacs 5 fighters and 5 strats....and if you have 15 tacs, better to split them up into squadrons of 5 each and attach support planes to each rather than attack/patrol with all 15 tacs in one stack.

      There is another reason why too. Lets compare a stack of 20 tacs bombing a tough ground force. At 5 % damages it looses 1 tac down to 19. But the stack of 5 tacs 5 fighters, 5 strats, 5 naval air doesn't actually start losing planes until taking 20% damages. And surprisingly, they do about the same damages to the ground forces they are attacking simply due to the SBDE. Their attack factor against ground forces may be less, but they take no SBDE penalty,

      The post was edited 4 times, last by Redd Baron ().

    • wildL SPQR wrote:

      Yeah, but sending 5 planes over a stack of 20 something get's your losses in the high.
      rough estimate @level 6

      20 tac: attack strength = 77 inf, 42.7 arm 500 hp (sbde 35%)

      5 int +5 tac +5 nav +5 strat = 102.5 inf, 60 arm 500 hp (sbde 102%)

      a mixed force not only has better strength against that tough ground force, it also takes less losses. after 25 hp damages you lose a tac bomber in the stack of 20 tacs, but after taking 25 hp damages the mixed stack takes no losses and still fights @ ~97% strength.

      Keep in mind though, as stated above, you probably wouldn't want to add naval bombers until they are at least level 3. There are also times when you want a smaller search area, or times you need greater range, or times you need greater speed. Many situational changes can be made by dropping a certain type from the mix. BUT overall, because of State Based Damage Efficiency, mixed forces much better.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Redd Baron ().

    • wildL SPQR wrote:

      Redd Baron wrote:

      wildL SPQR wrote:

      Yeah well if you want to waste your research on all those indifferent planes go right ahead :)
      I am the Redd Baron! And air superiority does bring many tactical advantages. :D
      I thought so :D
      It just so happens I just finished yet another game where my main opponent had vast numerical superiority both in the air and on the ground (Including 120+ tac bombers to my 20! and both kinds of nukes too), but didn't understand SBDE. (I took over after a noob went idle after 20 days) In one day I had air superiority, and 5 days later the whole map. This is because I had 4 "airforces" with 5 tacs each, but also supporting aircraft as well, while he had his tacs in 2 main groups, one with 97 tacs and the other the rest. He sneak attacked first, but not long after with his country in ruins, my small airforces, but spread over many theatres, seemed much larger. ;)

      Now I could never have done that if I wasn't online when he started tossing rockets and nukes around. But as I was online, I had the tools needed to thwart his attacks, air land and sea. You can't use those tools unless you researched those tools. But then you still need to understand SBDE so you don't have diminishing returns on your attack strength. Outnumbered like that you need every point.
    • Can someone explain this defensive bonus? What kind of bonus do you get by stacking units? Is this simply referring to the added defense value of the stacked units?

      Another question about SBDE but possibly related:

      So it looks like bombers can be stacked up to 5 at a time to achieve maximum efficiency. What if I split them up into 2 and 3? Efficiency is still the same, but will these stacks take more damage because they are doing 2 separate attacks and damage is dealt once for each attack?

      What if I patrol them? Stack of 5 vs. stack of 2 + 3. The smaller stacks will again take more damage if attacked?
    • Captain_Mo wrote:

      Can someone explain this defensive bonus? What kind of bonus do you get by stacking units? Is this simply referring to the added defense value of the stacked units?

      Another question about SBDE but possibly related:

      So it looks like bombers can be stacked up to 5 at a time to achieve maximum efficiency. What if I split them up into 2 and 3? Efficiency is still the same, but will these stacks take more damage because they are doing 2 separate attacks and damage is dealt once for each attack?

      What if I patrol them? Stack of 5 vs. stack of 2 + 3. The smaller stacks will again take more damage if attacked?
      1) Defensive bonus is not based on number of units. Most units have higher defense rating than attack rating, so naturally, being on the defensive often gives you an advantage. This doesn't have anything to with SBDE as such.

      2) If you split into 2/3 they will get more damage taken because they would be making two separate attacks. Also they will absorb damage with a third damage on each plane for the 3 stack and half damage for each plane in the two stack; this instead of spreading the damage with a fifth on the 5 stack. So more damage taken pr plane. This is also the reason why I normally go above 5 stacks and do 8/8 stacks sometimes even 10/10 stacks.

      The faster you kill a enemy unit, the less attack/defense rounds it will have to damage your troops. Meaning that if you can kill a unit in one attack it's much better than splitting your army in two and then having to do 2 or maybe even 3 separate attack rounds. Thus, your troops, being inflicted with more damage than if it could kill the enemy unit in the first attack round.

      I hope this makes sense.

      3) Patrolling is a different matter and it can be a two-edged sword. The good thing is that on patrol, your planes will never have to refuel in between attacks. The bad thing is that they will only deal damage every 15 minutes and only at 25% strength. Another good thing about patrol is that the unit will not be as vulnerable to counterattack on retreat after a payload delivery or while refueling. (planes refueling or moving to refuel do not have any strength!)

      The bad thing about patrol is that users often forget that they have them on patrol making them vulnerable to the enemy planes and ground troops.

      The other night I lost 40+ planes while they were patrolling because a player moved a 40 stack (15 tanks, 15 AA, 10 infantry) under my patrolling fighters and bombers and thus killed many of them.
      Sincerely, wildL
      EN Mod
      Report a problem

    • Captain_Mo wrote:

      Another question about SBDE but possibly related:

      So it looks like bombers can be stacked up to 5 at a time to achieve maximum efficiency. What if I split them up into 2 and 3? Efficiency is still the same, but will these stacks take more damage because they are doing 2 separate attacks and damage is dealt once for each attack?

      What if I patrol them? Stack of 5 vs. stack of 2 + 3. The smaller stacks will again take more damage if attacked?
      The hack as I tried to explain above is to escort bombers and have the large stack of 10 15 or 20, which spreads around damages, yet you still have no sbde penalties. instead of 10 15 or 20 tac bombers all in one stack, you have 5+5, 5+5+5 or 5+5+5+5. Then if you need more tac bombers, two stacks or more of 5 tacs including their escorts will give you dominance.

      In other words the tipping point is 5 tacs (same for all the various air units). Splitting your airforce stacks down below the 5 tipping point is counter productive, and above five is diminishing returns. Every normal unit in the game has such a magic number but it varies depending on unit type. In the example above, if you have 10 tacs, then split them into 2 stacks of 5 each for maximum damage efficiency....but escort them with other planes to avoid taking too much damages in return. In the case of AA Art and AT that magic number is 8. Every unit has its optimum sbde, with heavier units generally having lower sbde optimum number.

      To make it simplified, large stacks suffering a sbde penalty, split into 2 or more until the penalty vanishes, but include mixed forces and you'll get the most out of your armies, IMHO

      As far as whether it is better to patrol or attack, that is case specific. Often if you have a high level 2 or 3 airfield close to the battle, attack can take down an enemy more rapidly. But if the airfield is low and far away patrol will take down an enemy faster. You also need to consider the enemy's response. If the enemy player is online and knows what he is doing, attack can be very very risky, leaving your force vulnerable. You can take down huge stacks of planes very quickly if you can catch them on the ground refueling. I will often make a mixed stack of escorted bombers patrolling, but split off the fighters to attack enemy bombers entering the fray, but it is a risk, because afterwards your fighters will be grounded. Example. In a recent war, I had my mixed unit patrolling and the enemy sent in a nuclear bomber, I split off my 5 fighters to attack the nuclear bomber, which killed it, but I was based at an allies airfield which was only level 1, while refueling, a second nuclear bomber that was following up slightly behind the first nuked the airfield and I lost all 5, leaving me with only my 3 reserve fighters I was bringing up for replacements and my tacs to try and defend against the two remaining nuclear bombers he sent later. So it can be risky to say the least.

      Of course that's what makes the game fun! For every strategy there is a counter strategy!

      The post was edited 2 times, last by Redd Baron ().