Pinned State-based damage efficiency

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    • Yes it does, but if the intended goal was to lower the defense of overstacked armies, clearly they didn't succeed because it leaves out of the picture three very important cases:

      1. Artillery exchanges (being a range attack, there is no defensive fire)
      2. Naval combats of capital ships (for the same reason)
      3. Airplanes patrolling or attacking land units (the planes receive defensive fire, never use their own, and the increase in hitpoints more than compensates the less efficiency, in many cases, due to better damage control).

      If these cases were minor or rare it wouldnt be an issue - but clearly they are major part of the game.

      EDIT: To put some numbers into this, in order to be concrete.

      Let's suppose that (around Day 14) you face an army of
      8 AA Lvl2
      8 Infantry Lvl3
      6 LT Lvl2
      8 arty Lvl2
      6 AT Lvl2

      and you want to attack it with planes. Your air fleet consists of 15 interceptors, 15 tac, and 15 strat all Lvl2.

      If you do a test, you will see that by far the best strategy is to send all your planes together (no splitting, sbde, or whatever strategic concept). Furthermore, if you have more planes, you simply add them as well - the more the much better. Effectively by adding more planes you add (a small amount) of attack, a big amount of defensive hitpoints, and you can laugh at the notion of "efficiency".

      Since there is no ceiling in this, there is neither strategy or optimum.

      The post was edited 2 times, last by atreas1 ().

    • If there is no opposing air force, that is mostly true.
      14 Interceptors @ 96% condition has 48% SBDE. So, two stacks of 7 each would do almost twice the attack damage while taking more damage initially since their would be two attacks per time period. Since you are doing on average about twice as much damage, you would destroy enemy units quicker.
      So, having 15 of each in one stack doesn't necessarilly do the most damage on average. So, for anything above 14 planes each, two stacks of planes is often better. Also see substitution below. It might be better to use less of each plane type and use substitution.
      MORE HIT POINTS: While you have more hit points that really doesn't help since you will lose an interceptor for every 20 points of damage to your interceptor group, a tac bomber for every 20 points of damage to your tac bomber group and a strat bomber for every 30 points of damage to your strat bomber. By having two attack groups you could take as much as 39 points of damage to your 2 interceptor or 2 tactical groups before losing one of them. Your strat bombers could take as much as 59 damage points before losing your first strat.
      SUBSTITUTION: If their is no significant opposing air force, you can also substitute a plane(s) of same type with more hit points for one that has received damage during the battle. It takes more time but may save some planes.
      STRATEGY: Often you can destroy some units of the stack. Then wait for day change. Then continue the attack after day change. Your planes can heal 15% of their damage. Since the defenders have fewer units left, your planes are stronger and probably won't take as much damage since you have destroyed some of the enemy units.
    • atreas1 wrote:

      Let's suppose that (around Day 14) you face an army of
      8 AA Lvl2
      8 Infantry Lvl3
      6 LT Lvl2
      8 arty Lvl2
      6 AT Lvl2

      and you want to attack it with planes. Your air fleet consists of 15 interceptors, 15 tac, and 15 strat all Lvl2.
      That is just suicidal. . .

      This is proof that AA works, and that a balanced stack of forces is the better strategy. This grouping will knock planes out of the sky in any combination. Sure the large single stack will survive longer. I tried a similar test yesterday but the AI split their doom stack up under my single stack, so the test failed.

      The proper use of air power is in hitting individual units or small groups before they can form a "doom stack" and to prevent reinforcements from arriving. You need some other form of bombardment to deal with that group, preferably artillery of your own from a fortified location, or you need to do an end run around this stack and make them split it up to chase you, so that your planes have a chance to pounce on weaker portions of it.
      War is a game that is played with a smile. If you can't smile, grin. If you can't grin keep out of the way til you can. - Winston Churchill



      VorlonFCW
      Main Administrator
      EN Support Team | Bytro Labs Gmbh

      >>> Click Here to submit a bug report or support ticket <<<
    • VorlonFCW wrote:

      atreas1 wrote:

      Let's suppose that (around Day 14) you face an army of
      8 AA Lvl2
      8 Infantry Lvl3
      6 LT Lvl2
      8 arty Lvl2
      6 AT Lvl2

      and you want to attack it with planes. Your air fleet consists of 15 interceptors, 15 tac, and 15 strat all Lvl2.
      That is just suicidal. . .
      This is proof that AA works, and that a balanced stack of forces is the better strategy. This grouping will knock planes out of the sky in any combination. Sure the large single stack will survive longer. I tried a similar test yesterday but the AI split their doom stack up under my single stack, so the test failed.

      The proper use of air power is in hitting individual units or small groups before they can form a "doom stack" and to prevent reinforcements from arriving. You need some other form of bombardment to deal with that group, preferably artillery of your own from a fortified location, or you need to do an end run around this stack and make them split it up to chase you, so that your planes have a chance to pounce on weaker portions of it.
      I am glad you recognize that the large single stack will survive longer (this is in fact a euphemism, as we are talking about losing about 30-50% less planes). This is proof enough that sbde failed completely in its purpose, which was to make large stacks less efficient - here, and in myriad other common cases it becomes MORE efficient.

      We can try to look for other strategies, but this is not at all the point. We cannot hope that an experienced opponent will do as the favor of splitting or of sending unprotected units, so neither this is the point. The real point is something else:

      Since SBDE affects only attacking/defensive power, it still fails.

      Surely, the easiest way to completely solve this is to make overstacking affect the hitpoints of the (overstacked) units, in the same way that the terrain modifier does. Another (more subtle) way would be to make it affect the random factor, with the obvious justification that if you fill the sky with planes I will have more chances to get a hit. Or something else that the game mechanics know better than us.

      The rules are not written in stone, and when you notice an anomaly or a failure you of course try to circumvent it, but also perhaps to find a way to make the game even more dynamic and strategic.
    • The main reason why the big air stack works better is not because of the first round, but for subsequent rounds. When you are taking losses from the smaller stacks, they become less efficient QUICKER than the big stack (because they drop UNDER the SBDE value and simply having less fire power per stack, while the AA still fires back at them on every attack). In an ideal world, where losses would immediatly be replaced after taking them, the 5-5 stack would still be ideal; unfortunately, having to fly back to base to reorganize makes that unfeasible. So yeah, a (somewhat) bigger stack is surely a good choice since it takes future losses (to that strong AA section) into account and has more stamina.

      If you had " all the time in the world", yes, a somewhat bigger stack (carrying reserves for losses taken WITH them) works better against such an AA-heavy opponent. Usually you don' t though; your planes are a scarce resource and you have many different targets; so you don' t just want to optimize damage versus losses, but you want to optimize damage-per-timeunit. And SBDE-optimized stacks do THAT much better; two 5-5 stacks destroy a non-AA'ed enemy unit twice as fast as one 10-10 stack, so they can shift to their next target twice as fast. Your example has a high AA' ed enemy; usually those shouldn' t be attacked with air AT ALL as Vorlon already explained, unless you are desperate. Under " normal" circumstances (attacking smaller or non-AA'ed stacks, the enemy also having an air force, etc etc), using smaller stacks ABSOLUTELY works better.
      When the enemy is driven back, we have failed. When he is cut off, encircled and dispersed, we have succeeded. - Aleksandr Suvorov.
    • The main reason the single stack works better is not the first round, neither the subsequent rounds. It is the very simple and (should be obvious) fact that the target is attacked less times, so it has less opportunity to use the defensive weapons. The better the defensive weapons are, the biggest is the disadvantage of sbde. Still, even if I take away FIVE of the 8 AA, splitting still results in 20-30% more damage in hitpoints.

      Also, reserves dont matter at all. SBDE-perfect stacks simply exploit to the full the attacking potential, resulting in faster completion of battles, but with the high cost of much bigger damage in the (truly) valuable planes. It is clear that since in the long-run it is more important to have 1 extra plane than to save one hour, everyone can understand where the current mechanism leads.
    • I was working on a supremacy map today, and I noticed an error in the SBDE calculations.
      The first post states that rocket fighters take 3 planes to have 100% SBDE.
      But my stacks show that Rocket fighters still have 100% SBDE at 5 planes.
      "War is fought in three ways. Helping your enemy to lose, helping your allies to victory or helping yourself to win. Any way you take it, you are always helping someone."
    • wildL SPQR wrote:



      State-Based Damage Efficiency

      Or SBDE, is a percentage rating for stacked units of the same kind. If your stack of units has 100 points in strength (attack/defense value) but only 70% in SBDE, they will inflict damage as if they were only at 70 points in strength.

      A way to understand this, is to think of your troops getting in each others way, clogging up battle lines and not being able to fire on the enemy.

      Also SBDE is depending on the unit "health/HP" or "morale/condition". If a unit is only at 50% health/HP it will not have 100% SBDE but less. It will still have more than 50% SBDE so in some cases a hurt unit will deal almost the same as a normal, full health unit.

      So how can you improve SBDE rating?

      Imagine a line of units. 10 infantry standing in line firing at a target. The 10 behind them can't fire, because the others in front of them are blocking their view. Now imagine two lines next to each other with 10 units in each. Both lines can fire now.

      So what you want to do, is split your large stack into smaller stacks when engaging someone. You can do this by splitting out a stack and send them a little further ahead than the other stack (further ahead than where the enemy is standing). Sending the stacks to different end locations will make sure they don't merge upon engaging the opponents units. This way your troops will engage as two separate stacks having much better SBDE.

      Be wary

      Personally, I use split stacks to great avail, so I highly recommend it. But keep in mind, if the defending stack is very large, it might be "dangerous" to split your units into inferior forces.

      Also splitting stacks while you are the defender will cause the split stack to lose it's defensive bonus!

      The same mechanics apply to all types of units, be it planes, navy or land units.

      List with maximum numbers to achieve 100% SBDE for stacked units:


      (made by @BRDubbs )

      i. Aircraft – Interceptor – 5
      ii. Aircraft – Naval Bomber - 5
      iii. Aircraft – Strategic bomber – 5
      iv. Aircraft – Tactical bomber - 5
      v. Anti air – 8
      vi. Anti air – SP – 6
      vii. Anti tank – 8
      viii. Artillery - 8
      ix. Artillery – SP – 6
      x. Armored car – 8
      xi. Infantry – Commandos - 8
      xii. Infantry – Infantry – 8
      xiii. Infantry – Mechanized - 6
      xiv. Infantry - militia - 11
      xv. Infantry – motorized - 8
      xvi. Naval - Battleships – 3
      xvii. Naval – Carriers – 3
      xviii. Naval – Cruiser – 5
      xix. Naval – destroyer - 7
      xx. Naval – submarines – 7
      xxi. Tank - destroyer – 5
      xxii. Tank – heavy – 5
      xxiii. Tank – light - 6
      xxiv. Tank – medium - 5
      xxv. Aircraft - Rocket fighter - 3
      xxvi. Railroadgun - 3




      Happy hunting.
      is this still accurate? so basically what i gather from reading all the comments here is , I can have the above number of each unit type in one stack together for maximum damage? (obviously separated by Land/Air/Water) after that the extra units are only good for extra defensive bonuses?

      The post was edited 1 time, last by PeppieLePew: missing words ().

    • I have kept this list up to date with any changes, additions, and corrections, so yes.
      War is a game that is played with a smile. If you can't smile, grin. If you can't grin keep out of the way til you can. - Winston Churchill



      VorlonFCW
      Main Administrator
      EN Support Team | Bytro Labs Gmbh

      >>> Click Here to submit a bug report or support ticket <<<
    • Is there a SBDE maximum number for transport ships?
      Or do those break down into their respective unit SBDE, like, let's say you have a convoy which consists of let's just say 8 AA, 8 AT, 8 armored cars. Would those transport ships work at 100% or are they summed up into 24 and only work with, Idk, 80%? You probably know where I'm getting at.
    • Aloriel wrote:

      Is there a SBDE maximum number for transport ships?
      Or do those break down into their respective unit SBDE, like, let's say you have a convoy which consists of let's just say 8 AA, 8 AT, 8 armored cars. Would those transport ships work at 100% or are they summed up into 24 and only work with, Idk, 80%? You probably know where I'm getting at.
      when dealing with convoys, the unit SBDE that is in the convoy applies. convoys themselves do not have a certain SBDE.

      so if you have 8 infantry, than you are at max SBDE for convoys have no SBDE themselves.
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