A thought on the Early 20th Century

itsDeems · Jun 25th 2015, 4:42am

I have dedicated a fair amount of time to the three ideologies of the early 20th century.

And, I believe that the Nazis are given far too much credit. The majority of their technological advances were built up from the Era of Bismarck, and while Bismarck effectively solidified the German state - in the course of several years that radical party split it in two for some forty years.

Many, many people forget that technologically - in regards to military - America was already far behind Germany at the turn of the 20th Century, largely due to again...Bismarck, and their whole not really being a World Power previously. In fact, WW1 and WW2 were a series of rapid technological improvements and advances for the Americans.

One need only look at German, and other European views of the time, concerning America to see the rapid change it underwent during WW1 and again in WW2.

Additionally, many of the "advances" of the Germans under the Nazis are much like the modern Russian super tank - never produced in the reported numbers, incredibly unreliable (especially due to the constant incorporation of multiple improvements), and overall ineffective.

The American Mixed Market system turned out far more reliable, efficient vehicles. Additionally, those who carry on about tanks forget that America intended tanks to be fought not with tanks - but with tank destroyers. Implementation merely proved much more difficult then was realized.

I guess that tying it all together in a nice bonnet, I do not believe WW2 would have ever ended any differently. Or even the Cold War after it, all systems and their respective countries staying consistent.

There simply seems to be something superior about the Mixed Market system in regards to the human condition. Even as we now are in the 21st Century, we increasingly see only variations of it remaining in the most successful economic systems (as well as the GINI nations). Such, assuredly, is a tell-tale sign.

It intrigues me greatly the divergences within the system - especially between European countries as a whole and the U.S. as a whole...but I suppose that is the 21st Century chapter, not the 20th

V1nd1cat0r · Jun 26th 2015, 4:15am

I remember a saying:
The U.S. won the war because their German scientist was better than their German scientist.

itsDeems · Jun 26th 2015, 5:21am

V1nd1cat0r wrote:

I remember a saying:
The U.S. won the war because their German scientist was better than their German scientist.

Yes and no.
Einstein was German, but the Italian (who started the Manhattan Project) was not.

Most people believe that there was a viable nuclear arms race during WW2 - nothing could be farther from the truth.

The Germans lacked the drive (no demonstration of nuclear chain reaction for much of the war), as well as the desire (utilizing their industry for existing or likely techs instead). They mostly focused on rocketry.

Most people also do not realize there was another atomic bomb that was not dropped. Or that Nazi Germany was initially an atomic bomb target too, until they surrendered.

Butter Ball Bill · Jun 26th 2015, 1:40pm

German was trying to make a dirty bomb which is basically just some radioactive material and normal explosives.

A project was present as they had heavy water factories in Norway which you need for doing something with an atom bomb, although when it comes to making an atom bomb I know nearly nothing.

Pablo22510 · Jun 26th 2015, 1:49pm

Germany wasn't too keen on making the atom bomb. They were more focused on heavy tanks and rockets. The heavy water plant in Norway was their only chance, but it got destroyed in early 1943 by SOE-trained Norwegian commandos, and Germany's hopes of getting the bomb and dropping it onto London before the end of the war were destroyed.

And yes, Nazi Germany was a nuclear target, but the war finished too quickly so the Allies focused their efforts on Japan.

Katheryn · Jun 28th 2015, 2:15am

V1nd1cat0r wrote:

I remember a saying:
The U.S. won the war because their German scientist was better than their German scientist.

No no no
Even if they somehow had achieved to emerge victorious against russia, his leader probably would do something silly like attacking japan or something like that

Emperor Lelouch · Jun 28th 2015, 4:55am

itsDeems wrote:

I have dedicated a fair amount of time to the three ideologies of the early 20th century.

And, I believe that the Nazis are given far too much credit. The majority of their technological advances were built up from the Era of Bismarck, and while Bismarck effectively solidified the German state - in the course of several years that radical party split it in two for some forty years.

Many, many people forget that technologically - in regards to military - America was already far behind Germany at the turn of the 20th Century, largely due to again...Bismarck, and their whole not really being a World Power previously. In fact, WW1 and WW2 were a series of rapid technological improvements and advances for the Americans.

One need only look at German, and other European views of the time, concerning America to see the rapid change it underwent during WW1 and again in WW2.

Additionally, many of the "advances" of the Germans under the Nazis are much like the modern Russian super tank - never produced in the reported numbers, incredibly unreliable (especially due to the constant incorporation of multiple improvements), and overall ineffective.

The American Mixed Market system turned out far more reliable, efficient vehicles. Additionally, those who carry on about tanks forget that America intended tanks to be fought not with tanks - but with tank destroyers. Implementation merely proved much more difficult then was realized.

I guess that tying it all together in a nice bonnet, I do not believe WW2 would have ever ended any differently. Or even the Cold War after it, all systems and their respective countries staying consistent.

There simply seems to be something superior about the Mixed Market system in regards to the human condition. Even as we now are in the 21st Century, we increasingly see only variations of it remaining in the most successful economic systems (as well as the GINI nations). Such, assuredly, is a tell-tale sign.

It intrigues me greatly the divergences within the system - especially between European countries as a whole and the U.S. as a whole...but I suppose that is the 21st Century chapter, not the 20th

Your mostly right but theirs some flaws you have.

1. The reason the Americans were lacking in technology cause of them trying to be isolated. After ww1 the US wanted no involvement in other nations problems.

This is hard to believe cause of modern America. The "World Police" this is because the Communism the enemy to Capitalism. Which is stupid cause Communism killed itself only few nations that installed Communism survived kinda.... (but thats off topic)

Most people don't realize but the Allies defeated Germany before Japan. Because they stalled the Pacific War with Japan because at the time Japan had their kamikazes. Which was costing to many American lives so they focused on Germany. Once defeating Germany America toke most German Scientist who were working on the V2 and with their help created the Atomic Bomb which was used on Japan.

That being said, The Emperor of Japan unlike Hitler did not take his own life ironic since most Japanese would cause of "honor and shame". The Emperor actually stayed in power after WW2 to become what is today a Puppet State of USA. (It's harsh but its true) The Japanese Military is not even a military its a SDF. Self Defense Force. See after WW2 us Americans were full of hate for a good reason so we stripped Japan of everything and rebuilt them as a "puppet" they are forced to obey us because we are the only thing protecting them.(sorry off topic)

The USA is the most advanced nation today because other nations made us like that. The only truly american invention that changed the world was the airplane. Yes the only thing we can be proud of back in the 18 Century.

2. Your completely wrong about the Americans not wanting to use Tanks to destroy other tanks.

I know this for a fact cause Tank Destroyers were not used to destroy Tanks.

See Tank Destroyers were used mainly for defense.

It was written in the manual for tanks to take out other tanks.

It was written in the manual for Tank Destroyer to only be used in ambushing enemy tanks or defend against counter-attacks. The only time TDs were used in offense was in extreme matters.

Myths of American Armor during WW2

^ watch this if you don't believe me this proves everything i said in 2 is correct.

3. The American Market was so effective because it proves that a consumer based market is way affect than any economy. It also proved that in times of war the American Economy beat all other nations.

Aircraft Production (all types)
1939 1940 1941 1942 1943 1944 1945

United States	2,141	6,068	19,433	47,836	85,898	96,318	46,001
Britain	7,940	15,049	20,094	23,672	26,263	26,461	12,070
Soviet Union	10,382	10,565	15,737	25,436	34,900	40,300	20,900
Germany	8,295	10,862	12,401	15,409	24,807	40,593	7,540
Japan	4,467	4,768	5,088	8,861	16,693	28,180	8,263

Tank Production (all types)

United States	60,973
Soviet Union	54,500
Britain	23,202
Germany	19,926
Italy	4,600
Japan	2,464

US Military Production Totals

Battleships	10
Aircraft Carriers	27
Escort Carriers	110
Submarines	211
Cruisers/Destroyers/Escorts	907
Rail Road Locomotives	7,500
Guns and Howitzers	41,000
Landing Craft	82,000
Tanks and Armored Vehicles	100,000
Ships of All Type	124,000
Aircraft	310,000
Steel Production (tons)	434,000
2 1/2-ton Trucks	806,073
Vehicles of All Types	2,400,000
Rifles and Carbines	12,500,000
Yards of Cotton Textiles	36,000,000,000
Rounds of Ammunition	41,000,000,000

With the Technology advances from Europe and Americas unmatched production is what made it into a World Super Power.

V1nd1cat0r · Jun 28th 2015, 8:16am

in terms of economy because the U.S isolated itself from the rest of the world during WW1 till WW2, the U.S have unrivaled production, and because they operate on a consumer based market they get a LOT of money thus being capitalist economic system.

There is also a reason why the US postpone the war in the pacific, namely its too costly and a naval invasion against japan it was said that such invasion will be outright impossible and if possible it will so bloody, it will shadow other bloody battles of the war, it will break the U.S ability to wage another war, or at least that what the US generals think.
if you think about it Germany was the original nuke target, but after experiencing the most intense battle with japan, that is not their homeland, the US is afraid of attacking japan main islands directly they waited for the A-bomb instead
(I'm getting off track so i should stop)

Butter Ball Bill · Jun 28th 2015, 11:09am

You guys weren't going off topic, this is an OT thread about 20th century, which you were talking about.

itsDeems · Jun 28th 2015, 10:19pm

Pablo22510 wrote:

Germany wasn't too keen on making the atom bomb. They were more focused on heavy tanks and rockets. The heavy water plant in Norway was their only chance, but it got destroyed in early 1943 by SOE-trained Norwegian commandos, and Germany's hopes of getting the bomb and dropping it onto London before the end of the war were destroyed.

And yes, Nazi Germany was a nuclear target, but the war finished too quickly so the Allies focused their efforts on Japan.

Pablo, good observations. They heavily funded rockets and heavy tanks

Emperor Lelouch wrote:

itsDeems wrote:

Your mostly right but theirs some flaws you have.
1. The reason the Americans were lacking in technology cause of them trying to be isolated. After ww1 the US wanted no involvement in other nations problems.

Most people don't realize but the Allies defeated Germany before Japan.

That being said, The Emperor of Japan unlike Hitler did not take his own life ironic since most Japanese would cause of "honor and shame".

The USA is the most advanced nation today because other nations made us like that.

2. Your completely wrong about the Americans not wanting to use Tanks to destroy other tanks.

I know this for a fact cause Tank Destroyers were not used to destroy Tanks.

3. The American Market was so effective because it proves that a consumer based market is way affect than any economy. It also proved that in times of war the American Economy beat all other nations.

With the Technology advances from Europe and Americas unmatched production is what made it into a World Super Power.

Emperor, we can agree to disagree about the Tank Destroyers.

About isolationism, yes it was the 1980's surge and especially the Cold War that has made us so active globally.

About the economy and inventions, I think you have to remember what the United States is and what it is not. The United States is a land of immigrants, that being said those immigrants become U.S. citizens - we are much more welcoming in the long run then people realize. (I myself am 1/4 Italian, 1/4 German and 1/2 Native American)

So really all those inventors and their inventions are American. Plus, Europe was importing our tech. - not the other way around. And production took a while to increase, because we were still in the depression's tail end at the war's start (and were also not in a full war time production economy, factories had to be re-tooled).

I would argue that the consumer economy that makes us so efficient in production, also attracts talent from abroad (in addition to our actual stellar record on inclusion) - always has, always will - but that we as Americans (majority) always eventually welcome such people not as remaining "French-Americans" or "Italian-Americans"...but as Americans. This fact can be proven from my dad's own life, as a kid he was called a whap and kraut...as an adult he is called white.

My father was an immigrant.

V1nd1cat0r wrote:

in terms of economy because the U.S isolated itself from the rest of the world during WW1 till WW2, the U.S have unrivaled production, and because they operate on a consumer based market they get a LOT of money thus being capitalist economic system.

There is also a reason why the US postpone the war in the pacific, namely its too costly and a naval invasion against japan.

The reason the U.S. was talking about a naval invasion of Japan (after the bloody island battles) - was secrecy of the Manhattan Project. They had to keep the front, and literally almost no one knew about it.

If Japan had not surrendered, the only troops landing would have been those following more atomic bombs.

For all the people that carry on about Japan, given that they were responsible for Pearl Harbor, massive American casualties, had betrayed American businessmen AND the alliance they had the last world war, and had ignored blockades and were messing with American interests in that part of the world for years...

Anyone who believes the U.S. population would have done anything but support nuking Japan in to oblivion is sorely mistaken and is not looking at it in the time.

In fact, they would have probably made most of the islands unihabitable unintentionally from fallout.

Remember too, at this time in history the U.S. only had roughly 40 million more people then Japan (80 million to 120 million roughly).

Emperor Lelouch · Jun 29th 2015, 1:45am

itsDeems wrote:

Emperor, we can agree to disagree about the Tank Destroyers.
About isolationism, yes it was the 1980's surge and especially the Cold War that has made us so active globally.

About the economy and inventions, I think you have to remember what the United States is and what it is not. The United States is a land of immigrants, that being said those immigrants become U.S. citizens - we are much more welcoming in the long run then people realize. (I myself am 1/4 Italian, 1/4 German and 1/2 Native American)

So really all those inventors and their inventions are American. Plus, Europe was importing our tech. - not the other way around. And production took a while to increase, because we were still in the depression's tail end at the war's start (and were also not in a full war time production economy, factories had to be re-tooled).

I would argue that the consumer economy that makes us so efficient in production, also attracts talent from abroad (in addition to our actual stellar record on inclusion) - always has, always will - but that we as Americans (majority) always eventually welcome such people not as remaining "French-Americans" or "Italian-Americans"...but as Americans. This fact can be proven from my dad's own life, as a kid he was called a whap and kraut...as an adult he is called white.

My father was an immigrant.

The thing about the Tank Destroyers actually is true. Surprising yes but true. Just watch the video in the link i listed it talks about it at 1 point.

And the thing about the Inventions is also true. Yes the US was the land of opportunity, but compared to most nation before WW2 the US lacked proper technology. During the war with Japan the British actually gave the US their blueprints and radar equipment for their ships and planes cause the British had created a radar system that outmatched the US's extremely.

You also have to remember like i said other nations built the US to its current technology level. The American tanks were made up of different nations equipment. During WW2 the Allies had a mutual agreement you can say. Like the British used American equipment cause they couldn't produce it themselves but in return the US gained scientist, radar/radio technology. Enigma devices to intercept enemy transmissions. Etc....

Yes the nation is full of immigrants but the US after the fall of Berlin toke as many German Scientist to help make the A Bomb. These were not US citizens.

Butter Ball Bill · Jun 29th 2015, 2:05am

The Manhattan Project was underway before the fall of Berlin and scientists from Germany were taken out of Germany before and during the war, I think. The Manhattan Project started in '42.

Emperor Lelouch · Jun 29th 2015, 4:20am

Butter Ball Bill wrote:

The Manhattan Project was underway before the fall of Berlin and scientists from Germany were taken out of Germany before and during the war, I think. The Manhattan Project started in '42.

Thats why i said they helped not start

Share